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Trump's Obama Conspiracy Theory

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
That site is a left-wing propaganda site masquerading as news. It makes Breitbart look like 60 minutes. It's just terrible.

I've seen several of the programs this site shows as videos, and they sound bite and edit them to hell. Just a fair warning, I wouldn't take this site for much.

Here's an example:

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conte...-was-gay-he-would-have-shot-heterosexual-club

Responding to very early, unconfirmed reports that the terrorist who killed 49 people at a gay club in Orlando last weekend could have been gay himself, anti-Muslim activist Brigitte Gabriel said yesterday that if “his gayness” had been “an issue” in the shooting, he would have attacked “a heterosexual club” instead.

Gabriel told Newsmax’s Steve Malzberg that reports that the shooter may have repressed his sexuality were just an attempt by liberals to “divert the issue” from President Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s “failed policies” by noting the anti-gay nature of the attack.

“And, by the way, if this guy, if his gayness is an issue because he is gay and he wants to kill, you would think he would go into a heterosexual club and start shooting people out of complete frustration that he was not created like them or maybe heterosexuals look down at gays,” she said.



vs

The original:

http://www.newsmaxtv.com/shows/steve-malzberg-show/archive//vid/BtbWo1NDE6UYOwrO4eInQ19qcg5-znDA

The context of the show is completely different in the original. :p

Anyway, there are very few "extremely right" people in the Republican party anymore. It's mostly Libertarians and Neocons.
I watched both videos. No, it's not taken out of context. It's meaning is the same in both - it has no meaning because it's unintelligible nonsense. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm bored with this and want to go back to ROTFL at James David Manning videos. Much more productive use of my time.
 
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Underhill

Well-Known Member
He doesn't have to be a fundie to court votes or support. Also, his program and Clintons are about drastically increasing this number. He knows what he is doing... The average Muslim family has a ton more kids than anyone else. It will only take twenty years to matter. It's the long game. The FBI has to do what Obama says, so there is that. I"m not into conspiracies, but there are reasons why Obama and crew are soft as soon as the word Islam is mentioned. It doesn't matter if that is regard to people living in this country or our Muslim allies.

We have the right to know why he is being soft on them in the face of violence. The question is valid.

20 years to go from .9% to what exactly? Most immigrant populations have higher birth rate initially. The vast majority of them are Americanized within 2 generations.

One more question. Where does this notion that Obama has been soft on 'them' come from? ISIS is a shadow of what it was. We've dropped 50,000 bombs and missiles on them. Cut off their funding. Bin Laden is dead. His regime is in pieces.

It sounds to me like someone pulled it from some dank hole they sit on.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
No. Unsure how you made that connection.

I said terrorism feeds off fear. You said talking about republicans is the equivalent of talking about fundamentalist muslims committing terrorism.... I wasn't stretching.


I don't see ignoring them or bombing them as solutions. It's not like Obama isn't attacking them, but in so doing has incurred the wrath of the (far) left because not naming who you are attacking is very hard to get behind. I think Obama would claim he's attacking enemy combatants, while most everyone would filter that as radical Islamic militants. At the same time, the (far) left does take issue with this because a) it is relying on political ignorance as way to achieve certain outcomes and b) because of bypassing due process. I think it would help Obama to identify attackers on the homeland when they engage in terrorism. Not naming them, or the ideology, is grounds for ineffective strategizing. The best tools for combating their campaigns is to name who they are, so all paying attention are clear on who is being attacked and can possibly aid in that effort and (a second tool is) draw upon resources of moderates who represent different perspective than the militant extremist. The latter is more key, IMO. If framing US war on terror as "war on all Muslims," yep, that will be counter productive. If framing it as war on operatives claiming to be Muslim but engaging in non-peaceful actions as a means to an end, then all people, including moderate Muslims can be part of the combat / overcoming.

If there were an active war on Christian militant extremists, I truly believe moderate Christians would support the other side of the equation that seeks to overcome that distortion of their religion. I also believe there are many Muslims supporting those in the world right now who are combatting militant extremism by those who are distorting their religion. Some of these, more vocal people, are expressing a lack of strategy or signs of weakness by Obama administration. Others, I grant, are suggesting it is best for Obama to stay away from any hint of political rhetoric that could come off as U.S. as at war against Islam.

So I am trying to understand what your problem is. You think the president should give credit (blame in our eyes) to terrorist by talking about them by name. What you are missing is perspective. Everyone knows who is being attacked. That much is not in question. Everyone knows who is doing the attacking. The media more than make sure of that. So what exactly do you think the president talking about it would accomplish? Every time he would talk about muslims or islam as the problem, ISIS would point to that and say, "see, we were right! They are out to destroy Islam." This is the kind of rhetoric that is used to radicalize people.

I would prefer our president to not become a recruitment tool for ISIS. Thanks.



That's not (remotely) close to what you stated before.

Of course it is. When Trump says, "Make America great again" he is implying that it is no longer great. He is playing on the fears of the voters.

This type of message, either the positive spin (make America great again) or the negative spin (sticking with the other party another 4 more years would be disastrous) is how I've seen every political campaign for president where the other party, of the two party system is not holding executive branch, speak in their campaign rhetoric. It's not like Hillary (and Super PACs that support her) aren't using politics of fear in relation to how they frame Trump's approach to governing.

Trump is a scary guy.

But it is substantially different to point to a man or a policy and say that policy or person is scary and denigrating and demoralizing our entire country.



Now pitching for the presidential candidates who are worse than Trump, Hillary Clinton.

By any of the metrics we have been discussing she is vastly better than Trump.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I said terrorism feeds off fear. You said talking about republicans is the equivalent of talking about fundamentalist muslims committing terrorism.... I wasn't stretching.

You were clearly stretching cause I didn't say what you suggested I say. If I had, you would quote that. Instead, you are stretching from implication I made that had to do with how Obama can name one of his enemies (Republicans) and thus feed them by constantly calling them out and being very critical of them, but can't do it with another enemy which he (or America) is physically attacking. The logic, you used stated (and I quote):

When Trump stirs up fear of fundamentalist, ISIS and whatever the Islamic fear of the day is, he is feeding the terrorist machine, giving them credit for the fear and angst terrorism most desires. Obama doesn't focus on Islamic Fundamentalist because he doesn't want to cater to that fear. It isn't a sign of weakness, but of strength.

So Trump (along with many others) feeds the terrorist machine by naming Isis as engaging in militant (or radically extreme) Islamic ideology. Simply by naming them and drawing attention to this, he feeds fears. And I previously implied that Obama must be doing the same thing by naming Republicans and addressing their ideology in the negative ways he does, as an appeal to fear. That he feeds the Republican machine by just naming this. Yet in this post, I'm no longer implying what I meant, but stating it.

Yet from the previous implication, you took it as me implying that I am calling Republicans terrorists. When the reasonable implication is that if Obama has anyone that is not perfectly aligned with ideology, then if he is consistent, he ought to not call them out by any sort of name or he feeds them (somehow).

IMO, being more objective on this, one would realize that Trump is possibly using fear tactics to rally support for a different strategy going forward in national policy; while Obama is possibly using fear tactics to rally support for a different strategy going forward in national policy. Trump is looking to identify militant Islamic persons who have visibly physically attacked Americans and questioning how effective is our strategy thus far been, while Obama is looking to identify Republicans who have ideologically attacked Obama/Dems, and questioning how effective would it be to allow them to be in power (at federal level).

While it is a stretch, I think it is Obama that is possibly concluding that Pubs are more dangerous to America going forward than terrorists and is willing to call them out by name (as a group) so all are clear of who he is referencing and how dangerous they are in Obama/Dem opinion.

So what exactly do you think the president talking about it would accomplish? Every time he would talk about muslims or islam as the problem, ISIS would point to that and say, "see, we were right! They are out to destroy Islam." This is the kind of rhetoric that is used to radicalize people.

Obama could be clear to not state Muslims or Islam is the problem. And could be clear that militant Muslims are the problem. This would then make it clear to all, including moderate Muslims who the U.S. is at war with, and that we are looking for everyone that is not supporting of that ideology (terrorism through distorted rhetoric of Islamic faith) to assist us in our efforts going forward. Such that if you observe someone that is Muslim (or really could be anyone) and engaging in activities/preparations that appear to be militant, you'd report them, rather than have PC type concerns that would stop you because it's not really clear to you what 'helping the U.S. in their war effort means.'

From here, the clear identification, leads to long term strategy where U.S. is allied with moderate Muslims and working against the militant version of that faith that many to most moderate Muslims express is a distortion of their beliefs. In the short term, that might not always play out so rosy perfect because of how militant the U.S. is in its ongoing mission. Such that if Obama authorizes drone attack and that kills a number of moderate Muslims, it would be challenging (I would think) for moderate Muslims to know which side to choose, and likely end up choosing neither, even while U.S. would essentially demand you're either with us or against us, as would the Militant Muslim say essentially the same thing. But if the U.S. is clear in their message and consistently stating it, then the discerning Muslim can determine whether they wish to ally with the U.S. in overcoming Militant Muslims or stay on sidelines.

I would prefer our president to not become a recruitment tool for ISIS. Thanks.

Yeah, I'm sure militant minded Muslims would love Obama for using drone attacks in the middle east. Not use that as a recruiting tool, such that a person would never call 911 before an attack on U.S. soil and say things like, I'm about to demonstrate Islamic vengeance because of U.S. and Russia attacks on Islamic lands. Even while this person is not formally affiliated with Isis, but visibly is influenced by the recruitment strategies of Isis to the point where such an attack makes perfect sense in their mind.

Thus any POTUS who thinks any type of attack on anyone in the middle east is sensible and is exercising defense strategy for the U.S. would become recruiting tool for Isis. One would think this would include Bush, Obama, Trump and H. Clinton if they are paying attention. Or they could use wishful thinking and perhaps believe it only possibly pertains to Bush and Trump and magically Obama and H.Clinton have a, get out of Isis recruitment tool, card.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
You were clearly stretching cause I didn't say what you suggested I say. If I had, you would quote that. Instead, you are stretching from implication I made that had to do with how Obama can name one of his enemies (Republicans) and thus feed them by constantly calling them out and being very critical of them, but can't do it with another enemy which he (or America) is physically attacking. The logic, you used stated (and I quote):



So Trump (along with many others) feeds the terrorist machine by naming Isis as engaging in militant (or radically extreme) Islamic ideology. Simply by naming them and drawing attention to this, he feeds fears. And I previously implied that Obama must be doing the same thing by naming Republicans and addressing their ideology in the negative ways he does, as an appeal to fear. That he feeds the Republican machine by just naming this. Yet in this post, I'm no longer implying what I meant, but stating it.

Yet from the previous implication, you took it as me implying that I am calling Republicans terrorists. When the reasonable implication is that if Obama has anyone that is not perfectly aligned with ideology, then if he is consistent, he ought to not call them out by any sort of name or he feeds them (somehow).

I knew what you meant. But I described how terrorism works, and you tried to apply it to the Republicans. It's called a sense of humor bucko. Get one.

And Trump doesn't feed the machine by talking about ISIS, he feeds it by wining about Islam or Muslims. Every time a leader gets up and claims, directly or indirectly, that Islam is the problem, it allows groups like ISIS to claim the US isn't only targeting ISIS, but is targeting Islam.

IMO, being more objective on this, one would realize that Trump is possibly using fear tactics to rally support for a different strategy going forward in national policy; while Obama is possibly using fear tactics to rally support for a different strategy going forward in national policy. Trump is looking to identify militant Islamic persons who have visibly physically attacked Americans and questioning how effective is our strategy thus far been, while Obama is looking to identify Republicans who have ideologically attacked Obama/Dems, and questioning how effective would it be to allow them to be in power (at federal level).

While it is a stretch, I think it is Obama that is possibly concluding that Pubs are more dangerous to America going forward than terrorists and is willing to call them out by name (as a group) so all are clear of who he is referencing and how dangerous they are in Obama/Dem opinion.

No, Obama is willing to call out Republicans because Republicans generally don't recruit by claiming targeted persecution (although some have tried) of a wide swath of the population. Now if Obama started blaming Christians for the actions of the KKK, for example, that would be comparable to what Trump is doing by talking about banning Muslims.

Obama could be clear to not state Muslims or Islam is the problem. And could be clear that militant Muslims are the problem. This would then make it clear to all, including moderate Muslims who the U.S. is at war with, and that we are looking for everyone that is not supporting of that ideology (terrorism through distorted rhetoric of Islamic faith) to assist us in our efforts going forward. Such that if you observe someone that is Muslim (or really could be anyone) and engaging in activities/preparations that appear to be militant, you'd report them, rather than have PC type concerns that would stop you because it's not really clear to you what 'helping the U.S. in their war effort means.'

You think Obama hasn't pointed out that militant groups are the problem? He has named ISIS hundreds of times, talked about taking the fight to the Taliban back when they were still a threat. He has had no hesitation to name these groups. But publicly tying them to Islam or Muslims is a monumental mistake.

From here, the clear identification, leads to long term strategy where U.S. is allied with moderate Muslims and working against the militant version of that faith that many to most moderate Muslims express is a distortion of their beliefs. In the short term, that might not always play out so rosy perfect because of how militant the U.S. is in its ongoing mission. Such that if Obama authorizes drone attack and that kills a number of moderate Muslims, it would be challenging (I would think) for moderate Muslims to know which side to choose, and likely end up choosing neither, even while U.S. would essentially demand you're either with us or against us, as would the Militant Muslim say essentially the same thing. But if the U.S. is clear in their message and consistently stating it, then the discerning Muslim can determine whether they wish to ally with the U.S. in overcoming Militant Muslims or stay on sidelines.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Obama has made it very clear who the targets are.

Yeah, I'm sure militant minded Muslims would love Obama for using drone attacks in the middle east. Not use that as a recruiting tool, such that a person would never call 911 before an attack on U.S. soil and say things like, I'm about to demonstrate Islamic vengeance because of U.S. and Russia attacks on Islamic lands. Even while this person is not formally affiliated with Isis, but visibly is influenced by the recruitment strategies of Isis to the point where such an attack makes perfect sense in their mind.

Thus any POTUS who thinks any type of attack on anyone in the middle east is sensible and is exercising defense strategy for the U.S. would become recruiting tool for Isis. One would think this would include Bush, Obama, Trump and H. Clinton if they are paying attention. Or they could use wishful thinking and perhaps believe it only possibly pertains to Bush and Trump and magically Obama and H.Clinton have a, get out of Isis recruitment tool, card.

Of course they do. The difference is simple. Simply not tying ISIS or others to Islam in speeches harms nothing, cost nothing. Not bombing a potential threat could have huge consequences down the road. I'm not a huge fan of drone strikes but they have their time and place.

But why on earth would anyone with any sense do something that has no upside and can increase recruitment among our enemies? It just makes no sense. That is why badmouthing Islam or Muslims is a bad idea for any president and is a monumentally stupid and reactionary thing for Trump to do.
 

Palehorse

Active Member
Trump is right in a sense. What needs to happen is the president or congress has to tell the American people that our country is at war. Then Trump would be right and our country would have to build a mote around the castle. Otherwise trojan horses will be at the descretion of whoever lets people in the country. I bet if Hillary is losing come election time this will happen to suspend the elections.
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
This whole Obama doesn't use terms Republicans want him to use is nothing but manufactured political nonsense. A president has different rules. Were you mad GWB didn't use the term? Doubt it. We're you mad when 60 Americans died at embassies during his term? Doubt it.

When a Christian crusader shoots up a PP clinic do you want Obama to refer to them as radical Christian terrorists? Doubt it
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Good lord, I watched one video and made it to the 2:03 mark and had to cut it. What a piece of work.:eek:o_O:rolleyes:

I need to go have a shower now....
His rhetoric is very dangerous,hateful and insane, but I'll admit it makes me bust out laughing. "Long legged mack daddy!"
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
When a Christian crusader shoots up a PP clinic do you want Obama to refer to them as radical Christian terrorists? Doubt it
I certainly wouldn't object if Obummer called them such. It's what they are.... among other things, of course.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Uhoh, be careful. Guess how I know you're a conservative...
I'm both a Liberal (Provincially) and a Conservative (Federally). Canadians aren't like their Americano counterparts.... much... but, let me guess.
I'll bet it was the usage of "OBummer". You would likely faint if you knew what I called Michelle.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I knew what you meant. But I described how terrorism works, and you tried to apply it to the Republicans. It's called a sense of humor bucko. Get one.

And Trump doesn't feed the machine by talking about ISIS, he feeds it by wining about Islam or Muslims. Every time a leader gets up and claims, directly or indirectly, that Islam is the problem, it allows groups like ISIS to claim the US isn't only targeting ISIS, but is targeting Islam.

So? Let ISIS claim this. Why would any person on the planet put weight in what they have to say about Islam? If Obama states extreme radical Muslims are the problem and likes of ISIS wish to say that indirectly Obama is saying Islam is a problem, I don't see the issue. To whatever degree it is actually a problem for anyone, is where Trumps temporary ban on Muslims makes sense.

No, Obama is willing to call out Republicans because Republicans generally don't recruit by claiming targeted persecution (although some have tried) of a wide swath of the population. Now if Obama started blaming Christians for the actions of the KKK, for example, that would be comparable to what Trump is doing by talking about banning Muslims.

I agree that the KKK example would be a better comparison. But as you noted Republicans are recruiting people to their side by setting up situation based on Obama's rhetoric where he is verbally, passionately stating problem with Republican ideology for national governance. In a POTUS campaign, both sides will engage in negative rhetoric that amounts to direct or indirect assertions that the other side is unfit to lead the country, handle domestic or foreign affairs. This is intended as recruitment of independents to their position, as loyalists already have mind made up for the most part.

The issue isn't will Obama stop calling out Republicans as unfit for handling American issues going first, everyone expects him to continue this. He's not the only politician engaging in this tactic, on either side. If Obama were vague on this, he'd indirectly be sending a message that all Americans are unfit for the job he has been doing. Hence the reason to be specific. If specific about militant Muslims, it sends the message to Muslims, don't be militant against us. Work with us if you are Muslim and dislike the distortion of Islam for vengeful purposes. To (some of) us, this means that some Muslims (who we identify as Militant and can provide examples of) are unfit for Islam. And because we already have a long history of accepting Muslims within our borders and honoring traditions of Islam, it would foolish to think a new group on the block has a better idea of what America tolerates and doesn't tolerate in general. America wishes to be as specific as possible about the type of Muslims we will not tolerate.

The issue is for Obama to be clear on this with Muslims, and stay consistent on the matter of America is at or war, or at least battling Militant Muslims. The issue is for Obama to be consistent with what a politician said in Dec. 2015, when that asserted:

We cannot turn against one another by letting this fight be defined as a war between America and Islam. That does not mean denying the fact that an extremist ideology has spread within some Muslim communities. This is a real problem that Muslims must confront, without excuse.

I mean, you agree with what this politician is stating right?

You think Obama hasn't pointed out that militant groups are the problem? He has named ISIS hundreds of times, talked about taking the fight to the Taliban back when they were still a threat. He has had no hesitation to name these groups. But publicly tying them to Islam or Muslims is a monumental mistake.

So, you think quotes like the one above are a monumental mistake? Admittedly, the politician that stated this doesn't appear the type that has a clear strategy, but I think it helps if all Americans (including Muslim-Americans) are consistent on this type of message.

To the degree moderate Muslims (or anyone) are sympathetic with ongoing vengeance against the U.S. and its allies and not very visibly assisting U.S. efforts to identify, call out extremists, is the degree to which is makes some sense to group all Muslims together and restrict access to things freedom loving people take for granted. I believe most everyone going in this direction would realize that does absolutely stink that we are in position of going in that direction, given our history of peaceably getting along with most Muslims, recognizing that Islam is a part of the fabric of American culture. Realizing that at least some moderate Muslims clearly do support U.S. efforts in War on Terror. Within the last week, a very popular, highly honored Muslim-American passed away, and so one would have to be asleep in last 5 to 15 years to think America has inherent problems with all of Islam. Yet, allowing all Muslims, all access, to all things America during a time of war against militant Muslims does truly mean that all militant Muslims have to is infiltrate Muslim-American society and believe they can fit right in.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Anyone who is scared of particular religions coming into the country are feeding into terrorism and fear. It certainly isn't any sort of logical answer to the problem of violence especially when all these crimes have been done by citizens of the US. Spreading that sort of thing adds to fearmongering and will only lead to further alienate well meaning individuals based on the group they are in.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Acim said:
So? Let ISIS claim this. Why would any person on the planet put weight in what they have to say about Islam? If Obama states extreme radical Muslims are the problem and likes of ISIS wish to say that indirectly Obama is saying Islam is a problem, I don't see the issue. To whatever degree it is actually a problem for anyone, is where Trumps temporary ban on Muslims makes sense.

You don't see the issue with Obama affectively starting a holy war by pointing to Islam as the problem?

What you don't seem to understand is that as long as we can keep this fight limited to ISIS vs the US (and our allies) we will win. But the goal of ISIS is to draw all Muslims into the fight. If that happens there is no winning. Think about the trouble we've had in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria and multiply that by 10 or 20 and you might come close to the scope of the problem. We are walking on a knifes edge right now.

This is why Trump is scary. He has no grasp of the scope, no understanding of the subtleties of the situation. He is a bull in a china shop when it comes to foreign policy (which everyone seems to forget is the Presidents first priority).

I couldn't care less about muslims coming here. The policy is stupid, won't work, and will lead to even more racism in this country. But that is the least of our problems if Trump is in the white house.
 
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