ElishaElijah
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When the Scriptures make sense, seek no other sense. Those verses are clear in their meaning and line up with the rest of the Scripture on who Jesus is.
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Truth: either God exists or He don't.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do believe the apostles and the prophets. None of them ever said that Jesus created the heavens and the earth.
Paul said that. Paul sought to elevate Jesus to a station He did not have and in so doing Paul led Christians astray.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is absolutely false. Nothing in the Scriptures supports Jesus being God. The verses below explain why Jesus is not God, and why Jesus CANNOT be God.
Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:
John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Jesus said that God was greater than He was:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:
John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:
2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's right.the scriptures tell us who Jesus is, and they tell us that Jesus is not God.
#1883 Trailblazer, 4 minutes ago
ElishaElijah
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Brother, I gave you some of the Scriptures that clearly say Jesus is God and there are more, He became a man to redeem man so that’s it. You can misinterpret the scriptures all day long and that’s all I have to say on the matter other than when Jesus was worshipped He didn’t tell people to stop like the angels did.
ElishaElijah
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Then this...
“Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.””
John 8:58 NKJV
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I gave you some of the Scriptures that clearly say Jesus was not God and there are more.
#1883 Trailblazer, 4 minutes ago
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Jesus did not need to become God in order to redeem man. ALL Jesus had to do was reveal His teachings and then die on the cross. You only believe that Jesus had to become God on the cross because it is a Church doctrine but you have been hoodwinked.
Below is what Jesus did to redeem man:
Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.
This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.
But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?
But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.
The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.
The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.
The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121
The whole chapter can be read here:
29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
ElishaElijah
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Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that Jesus is not God. They say He was God
Jesus didn’t become God, He always was God and became man.
ElishaElijah
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Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus is not God but He is God, Creator who became Man.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's right, Jesus was before Abraham, since the soul of Jesus has always existed in the spiritual world, as I said before. But that does not mean that Jesus was literally God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The Essence of God cannot become flesh, so God cannot incarnate in the flesh.
“The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God….."
Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that Jesus is God.
Believe whatever you want to. I am not going to argue with you anymore.
Christians have been so brainwashed by the Church that they cannot see the forest through the trees.
They are going to believe whatever they were taught, even though it is not in the Bible.
You contradict your own Scriptures.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
ElishaElijah
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You mean your false interpretation of Scripture contradict the Scriptures.
ElishaElijah
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Sounds like new age stuff
ElishaElijah
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Not sure how you can say brainwashed by the Church when I gave you the Scriptures, which you used your own interpretation and twisted them to mean something they don’t.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What do you think is false?
Why is your interpretation any better than mine?
Who appointed you as the interpreter of the Scriptures?
ElishaElijah
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Scripture interprets Scripture and there are rules of interpretation to find out what God means by what He says. It’s called hermeneutics.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is not new age stuff although this is a new age.
We are living in a new age and it is called the Messianic Age because the Messiah has come.
In the Baháʼí Faith, the "Messianic Age" refers to a 1000-year period beginning with the Declaration of Baháʼu'lláh in 1863. Baháʼís believe the period of peace and prosperity is gradually unfolding and will culminate in the appearance of "The Most Great Peace".
Messianic Age - Wikipedia
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Who are you to say what they mean? That is the hundred-dollar question.
You believe you know what the Scriptures mean just like all Christians but nobody has given you any authority to interpret the Scriptures so what you believe they mean is just your personal opinion, no better than my personal opinion.
ElishaElijah
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God has given me the Holy Spirit who is His Spirit, He is the one that teaches me what the Scriptures mean.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, Scripture does not interpret Scripture, people interpret Scripture and assign meanings to it.
Christians have misinterpreted much of the Bible because they did not have the key to unlock the meaning. Because of the way the Bible was written, misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the Bible has been a big problem since the very beginning. Christians disagreed as to what the Bible meant and none of them clearly understood much of what it meant, and that is why there are so many different sects of Christianity. That is understandable because it was prophesied by Daniel in Daniel 12 that the Book would be sealed up until the time of the end, meaning nobody would really understand it.
The 2,300 years came in 1844 and the book was unsealed by Baha’u’llah. We do not have to run to and fro anymore. Unsealing the Book means knowledge has been increased so we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible. By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before.