Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Samael_Khan]

The question didn't concern me, it was regarding anyone who makes a big claim and what they base their claim on and what evidence they have for it.
I've never made any claims, I just paraphrase the One who made the claim that He is the truth and He proved it by showing that He is the almighty God creator of all thing by demonstrating His power over the natural world and the spiritual and over life and death.

There's no other god, or guru, or spiritual leader, or big shot scientist who can create a single speck of dust or command anything to come into existence by speaking it into existence. So I'll trash the rest and stick with the best. I will join you as soon as you have something more than wild fantasy to offer.

Says the guy who offers wild fantasy.

You have made claims.

You are claiming that the "One" is "the truth and He proved it by showing that He is the almighty God creator of all thing by demonstrating His power over the natural world and the spiritual and over life and death". Now prove that he did this and that it wasn't a couple of guys just making claims about him.

 

[Polymath257]

The question didn't concern me, it was regarding anyone who makes a big claim and what they base their claim on and what evidence they have for it.
I've never made any claims, I just paraphrase the One who made the claim that He is the truth and He proved it by showing that He is the almighty God creator of all thing by demonstrating His power over the natural world and the spiritual and over life and death.

It is your claim that this was proven. Yet no proof was actually offered. Just some unverified stories.

There's no other god, or guru, or spiritual leader, or big shot scientist who can create a single speck of dust or command anything to come into existence by speaking it into existence. So I'll trash the rest and stick with the best. I will join you as soon as you have something more than wild fantasy to offer.

You can cling to your fantasies. Some of us will stick to the evidence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What's false about it

The statement is false.
The authors of the gospels were not the apostles.
Neither were their names "mark" and "luke" and whatnot.

and which scholars are you talking about.

All of them.

Let me guess, someone told you it's false and you forgot the name of the wise guys who found faults in them.

No, it's actually quite common knowledge. So common that I'm actually quite surprised that you don't seem to be aware of it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I see you have your shield raised and your truth filter set on high; so I'll give it a miss this time.

I'm gonna interpret that as you not having this mysterious "irrefutable proof".

It's okay though. Trump's lawyers didn't have any either, as literally every judge and jury that were presented with these claims in courts pointed out as well.

But I guess you think they too are in on the "grand conspiracy" that Trump made you believe exists.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your philosophy would be wonderful if it weren't for the cold hard truth that all the judges and Republican turncoats are on the same payroll.

Uhu.

Sure, sure.

Do you really believe they would abandon their cushy lifestyles and their big fat pay checks for the sake of upholding the truth and justice.

lol wut?

More claims....
Your burden of proof is just getting larger.

So next to having to provide a *shred* of evidence for election fraud, you now also have to provide evidence for your claim that ALL these judges and juries are corrupt and in on some grand conspiracy....

If you believe that I have a Golden Gate bridge to sell you

Trump already sold it to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus taught us to examine everyone by one simple test. Just ask them if they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Show me one verse where Jesus taught us to examine everyone by one simple test and to ask them if they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh. That is just a Christian doctrine. God cannot become flesh because God is Spirit.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When you find out what the Bible teaches about Eternal Life and how to get it, then all those questions will be clear to you.

You didn't answer the question.

In your theology, can a non-christian (someone who does not believe in the bible / jesus / etc) get to heaven?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The question didn't concern me, it was regarding anyone who makes a big claim and what they base their claim on and what evidence they have for it.
I've never made any claims, I just paraphrase the One who made the claim that He is the truth and He proved it by showing that He is the almighty God creator of all thing by demonstrating His power over the natural world and the spiritual and over life and death.

There's no other god, or guru, or spiritual leader, or big shot scientist who can create a single speck of dust or command anything to come into existence by speaking it into existence. So I'll trash the rest and stick with the best. I will join you as soon as you have something more than wild fantasy to offer.

Repeating a claim, is making a claim.

 

[paarsurrey]

The four gospels were written by the apostles who recorded what Jesus said and what they saw and experienced during their time with Him, so I don't know what your issue is there.

Paul never wrote anything of his own, Jesus told Paul what to write. Saul/Paul asked Jesus why are you asking me to preach the gospel, I don't know anything about it but Jesus said I will tell you what to write.

I won't mention Mary, the biological mother of Jesus because women are not allowed to preach. Mary was a sinner and she had lots of sex and many children so she is not a virgin either.

" The four gospels were written by the apostles who recorded what Jesus said"

It is a wrong notion:
"The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euangelion kata Matthaion, Euangelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings. The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time. Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made. Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason."
" It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel and Gospels

Right, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

The Christians are the best at understanding their myth.

However, they do not know the truth about God or Jesus.
It's so painful to watch I am about outa here.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You didn't answer the question.

In your theology, can a non-christian (someone who does not believe in the bible / jesus / etc) get to heaven?

Don’t need to and neither do you need to answer mine but it doesn’t seem like you understand the Scriptures or the message.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Show me one verse where Jesus taught us to examine everyone by one simple test and to ask them if they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh. That is just a Christian doctrine. God cannot become flesh because God is Spirit.

““I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8, 17-18‬ ‭

Pretty clear in these verses who Jesus is. A lot more verses written by the apostles and prophets, do you believe their words are inspired by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Don’t need to and neither do you need to answer mine but it doesn’t seem like you understand the Scriptures or the message.

I know what the Bible says but the Bible is not the only Word of God that was ever revealed by God...

The Qur'an and the Baha'i Scriptures say you 'get to heaven' by believing in their Messenger and their Scriptures.
The thing is that Muslims and Baha'is believe in the Bible and in Jesus so we are covered... It is the Christians who 'believe' that are covered when really they are not because they have rejected all the Messengers of God who came after Jesus, which is equivalent to rejecting God.

 

[Trailblazer]

““I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8, 17-18‬ ‭

Pretty clear in these verses who Jesus is. A lot more verses written by the apostles and prophets, do you believe their words are inspired by God?

Yes, I believe that the words of the apostles and prophets were inspired by God, but what we believe is all according to how we interpret and thus understand the Scriptures.

Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega, but He was not the ONLY Alpha and Omega.
All the Manifestations of God (High Prophets) were the Alpha and the Omega because they were all the same Spirit of God who appeared in the flesh. They were all pre-existent in the spiritual world so unlike ordinary mortal men they had no beginning and no end.

In the following quote, He was referring to High Prophets, not ordinary prophets that we see in the Old Testament, because those prophets were not pre-existent since they were just ordinary humans. Jesus by contrast was more than an ordinary human because he had a two-fold nature, both divine and human.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

Since the spiritual world has no beginning and no end, that is why Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega. The body of Jesus was born of Mary, but His soul came from the spiritual world (heaven) That has no beginning and no end. The soul of Jesus is in heaven now, in a spiritual body.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes, I believe that the words of the apostles and prophets were inspired by God, but what we believe is all according to how we interpret and thus understand the Scriptures.

Jesus was the Alpha and the Omega, but He was not the ONLY Alpha and Omega.
All the Manifestations of God (High Prophets) were the Alpha and the Omega because they were all the same Spirit of God who appeared in the flesh. They were all pre-existent in the spiritual world so unlike ordinary mortal men they had no beginning and no end.

In the following quote, He was referring to High Prophets, not ordinary prophets that we see in the Old Testament, because those prophets were not pre-existent since they were just ordinary humans. Jesus by contrast was more than an ordinary human because he had a two-fold nature, both divine and human.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-18‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

Show me one verse where Jesus taught us to examine everyone by one simple test and to ask them if they believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Jesus never claimed to be God in the flesh. That is just a Christian doctrine. God cannot become flesh because God is Spirit.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Trailblazer]

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-18‬

Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that means that Jesus was not God.

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

I believe that is patently false. God created all things. Jesus did not create anything.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that means that Jesus was not God.

"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him."

I believe that is patently false. God created all things. Jesus did not create anything.

Then you don’t believe the apostles and prophets, that’s why I was asking.

 

[Trailblazer]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Please note that John 1:2-3 says that all things were made (created) by God. That contradicts what Paul said in ‭‭Colossians, referring to Jesus as the Creator of all things that are in heaven and on earth.

“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-18‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

Most Christians believe that John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 mean that Jesus was God. I do not believe that those verses mean that Jesus is God. God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God. The Word does not mean the body of Jesus but rather the divine perfections manifested in Jesus. Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, Jesus was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
John 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Please note that John 1:2-3 says that all things were made (created) by God. That contradicts what Paul said in ‭‭Colossians, referring to Jesus as the Creator of all things that are in heaven and on earth.

“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-18‬

The Scriptures are very clear that Jesus is God, the Almighty and Creator. They speak for themselves don’t need an interpretation that explains what they don’t mean.