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Truth without Scripture?
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Moses was partially raised by his mother who may very well have been versed in the Levitical oral tradition passed down from Jacob. There is a string of oral tradition that more than likely has passed on down from Adam.
I had a personal encounter with God at age thirteen but I am not sure it would have occurred to me to pray to a god without some knowledge of that god and the Bible provided that knowledge. However the God that answered me was not the God that I knew because I hadn't read enough of the Bible to know Him that way.
I had a personal encounter with God at age thirteen but I am not sure it would have occurred to me to pray to a god without some knowledge of that god and the Bible provided that knowledge. However the God that answered me was not the God that I knew because I hadn't read enough of the Bible to know Him that way.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
I think when Moses saw the burning bush and heard the voice of God, and especially the power of God at work, when the things he told Moses he would do began to come to pass, Moses knew it was God. And God told him he was the God of his fathers. As far as truth about God without scripture, yes, every man has some "light" to some extent, but scripture (to me the Bible), is God's revelation to us and is far greater in my opinion. Especially the Gospel.
Cheers!
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
I think scriptures actually interfere with our ability to find out the truth about God by framing a convenient "box" that discourages inquiry outside the parameters they set.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
One of the "rules" of literature is that we have to trust that the narrator is telling the truth. Therefore, since the narrator says that Moses encountered God, Moses encountered God, according to the story.
Moses was not the writer of Torah. The "disciples" were not the authors of the NT.
Sure it's possible. Scripture is not the only revelator of God.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
Huh???
And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD...Moses wrote unto us...have ye not read in the book of Moses...They have Moses and the prophets...If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead...Moses wrote unto us...And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself...And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me...For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting....Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered...Paul, unto the churches of Galatia...Paul.. .Unto the church of God which is at Corinth...The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand...Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand...The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write...I Paul have written it with mine own hand...Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called...The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John...
Cheers!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Moses could not have written the Torah, since the Bible was not written down until after 600 b.c.e. Most reputable scholars accept that he did not write it.
James and Peter were disciples of Jesus, but the letters ascribed to them were probably not written by them. They were more likely written pseudonymously.
Scriptures are not God, but instead they are more like a map or road. But they are needed. Suppose someone was to go in the desert and "experience" God or the were in touch with God. Of course that's great but where does it led? Scriptures gives accounts of so many other people who have experienced God/Jesus and there is actually a structure that follows. If you stop with feeling God in nature, etc... you are basically getting the thrills/excitement with no work. Scripture gives a more precise map -> one that you then have to experience.
Or this might be easier to understand: If you wanted to experience everything that a beach has to offer, you simply cannot get that from reading a book that describes it. You actually have to take the journey and go to the beach to experience it. But once you are there and have experienced it, how will you have any sense of direction or undestanding unless you have a book or a map.
Or this might be easier to understand: If you wanted to experience everything that a beach has to offer, you simply cannot get that from reading a book that describes it. You actually have to take the journey and go to the beach to experience it. But once you are there and have experienced it, how will you have any sense of direction or undestanding unless you have a book or a map.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
I would laugh, but you actually believe that. I am sorry, that is nonsense to me. Jesus and the apostles and the prophets all said Moses wrote the five books of the Law. They did not lie. Now, when Paul, James, or Peter begin a letter telling us it is from them, it seems a slap in their face not to believe them. James, the brother of Christ, said he wrote James, for one to dare write something we hold as scripture and attribute it to the brother of the Lord is pretty far out there my lad.
Cheers!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
How much accredited graduate study have you done in Biblical history and literature? I offer the following for your consideration:
Harris, The New Testament: A Student's Introduction, fourth edition, 2002, McGraw-Hill; pgs. 380, 383.
Steussy, Chalice Introduction to the Old Testament, 2003, Chalice Press; pgs. 29-32.
These are two reputable publications that offer solid Biblical scholarship with regard to the authorship of the documents in question.
You really need to bone up on the issue of pseudonymity in order to gain a realistic perspective of the origins of the Bible. It's really more a "claim of religious authority than a claim of literary authorship," as Rick Lowery (Hebrew Bible scholar and author) puts it.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
So when Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles all acknowledge that Moses wrote the Law, you prefer modernist textbooks to their word? That is sandy ground, indeed!
Cheers!
So when Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles all acknowledge that Moses wrote the Law, you prefer modernist textbooks to their word? That is sandy ground, indeed!
Cheers!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No. When history and anthropology indicate otherwise, I prefer scholarship and exegesis. Here's a quote for you:
"By the time of Jesus, the first five books of the Bible were ascribed to Moses, the hero of Exodus. In Hebrew, these five books are called the Torah, which means "teaching," although it is often translated as "law." Because the Torah includes a report of Moses' death, it is quite unlikely that Moses actually wrote these books, at least in the form that we now have them." (Chalice Introduction to the Old Testament, pgs. 29-30.)
There is also the anthropological problem that the society present at the time of the story was not largely literate -- it would have been an oral society. Add to that the fact that the Bible was not written down until about 600 b.c.e. (the events that would have included Moses happened much earlier than the writing.) Additionally, there is the problem of the JEPD authorship theory.
There just is too much evidence to the contrary to unequivocably ascribe authorship to Moses -- Jesus' Biblical ascription of it to Moses notwithstanding. We don't know what Jesus thought, since the gospels (as we have them) were written between about 30 - 70 years or so after his death. We can't be sure that all quotations ascribed to Jesus are either authentic or verbatim. Sorry. That's just the way it is.
Mr. Peanut
Active Member
Hi!
We must be discussing this same thing on two threads! I agree someone must have recorded Moses' death, but I do believe he wrote the rest, he could write. As far as that and the Gospels, I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost and that he was able to give us God's revelation and did so. No other book is so questioned then the Bible, we must learn to trust what it says: And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Cheers!
We must be discussing this same thing on two threads! I agree someone must have recorded Moses' death, but I do believe he wrote the rest, he could write. As far as that and the Gospels, I believe in the power of the Holy Ghost and that he was able to give us God's revelation and did so. No other book is so questioned then the Bible, we must learn to trust what it says: And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Cheers!
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
We must first learn what it says, before we can trust it.
Was Jesus teachings really revolutionary? Which came first; The teachings of Jesus or the teachings of Paul?
Well, I have to partially disagree with the last paragraph and I have read numerous books about the orgins of the Bible. Yes a great deal of scholarly reports sa that the first gospel was dated around AD but there is definitely evidence in the Bible which suggests they were written earlier. Acts was the 2nd book written by Luke - Paul is a central figure in Acts but it seems as though Acts ends abruptly when Paul is under house arrest. But Acts doesn't indicate anything about the last days of Paul or him dying. WHy? Probably because he was still alive when it was written. This mean it cannot be dated any later than AD 62. And since the gospel of Luke incorporates part of Mark - the latest Mark could have been written in AD 60.
As far as the gospel writes not accurately recording what Jesus said you have to look at people of that time. Obviously, these days, we wouldn't be able to remember specific quotes of somebody. However, you must understand this was an oral culture with much emphasis put on memorization - later Rabbis literally became famouns for having the entire Old testament memorized word for word. Additionally, the way in which Jesus spoke would have helped the ability to memorize as it was in poetic form - meters, balanced lines and parallelism. The "telephone game" is not in question with the gospels.
Luke_17:2
Fundamental Bible-thumper
This is warped.
There is not one place in the Bible that contradicts science or history.
If it does, we throw ALL of it out because it is no longer worth the paper it is printed on.
Of course, it is accurate. Its records coincide with historical events. No act violates a scientific law. No number or measurment violates mathematics.
There is not one place in the Bible that contradicts science or history.
If it does, we throw ALL of it out because it is no longer worth the paper it is printed on.
Of course, it is accurate. Its records coincide with historical events. No act violates a scientific law. No number or measurment violates mathematics.
Luke_17:2
Fundamental Bible-thumper
Jesus' teachings came first. The Roman historian Tacitus records Him, and his records show that Jesus came first.
Jesus' teachings were not revolutionary. They came from God, and God was giving everyone the chance for salvation. God is not revolutionary. The Bible says He doesn't change.
Fluffy
A fool
How does Tacitus' record indicate that Jesus' teachings came first? Tacitus came after both Jesus (80 years) and Paul (50 years) and is not exactly known for his accuracy. He makes a number of errors in that passage alone. Could he not have simply been conveying what had been taught by Paul? It would fit his style perfectly.Luke said: