Trying To Understand Atheism

[Milton Platt]

And it is my view that this is what atheists actually believe but refuse to admit. I don't think the notion of implicit atheism is coherent, or even cognitively possible. If you can comment upon it, you have a position about it.

It's a word game to manipulate the argument. That's all this whole thing boils down to.

It is impossible to know either way with 100% certainty. They are allowing you the benefit of the doubt and saying if you ever provide sufficient evidence, they are willing to reconsider. Which is more than most theists are willing to do.

 

[Milton Platt]

The atheist and theist(in most cases) are playing the same game, a game of ignorance, either way. The theist chooses a book to base their opinion on, in most cases, and concludes all of the answers lie there. The atheist simply chooses a dogma of skepticism, materialism, and other scientific tidbits to fashion the same assumptions. The only thing that has happened between these two is they shifted what data represents suitable evidence. Neither are interested in learning a thing! They are not really interested in what is there but rather that their selection criterion are correct.

Some people, when faced with such dilemmas, play the safety square and state boldly: "I'm agnostic!" However, this person falls into the same trap; presuming things are just unknowable or cannot be known. Again, this person wants to be right because they are pretty sure those other two are wrong but can't put a finger on the why.

Any sort of statement made on these matters without a direct experience of them is merely presumption. For example, we have cultures who communicate with gods directly and have done so for all of their recorded time -- we can assume they're idiots, or find parallels between them and other cultures and at least agree that "something" has been happening. This sort of proof, btw, is not considered valid to science even though they use it themselves to prove that psychology or sociology exist.

You're basically putting the cart before the horse -- you can't intellectually discern something which violates all of the conditions of your rationality. It doesn't make sense, and it never will. But, it doesn't have to.

Not necessarily so. Most atheists probably fall into the weak atheist camp. They simply are rejecting the claims for various gods that have been asserted. They are not bound to believing anything in particular. If I tell you god is a purple dragon that created everything, you would reject the claim until I demonstrated convincingly that the claim was true. It would not mean you were sure there could never be such a creature hiding someplace in the universe (or outside space and time). It simply means you chose the null position........you do not believe something until convincing evidence supports the claim.

 

[Tony Arthur]

Atheism is an inherently fallible concept, as in there may well be Gods, but in a way unknowable to us ... hat is absolutely certain, for me, is that all the religions on this planet were created by humans to try and find an explanation for existence, and to try and create a coherent structure within which life could make sense, as the idea of an existential void is so scary.

So, my position is, there may well be a God, or Gods, although I doubt it, but if there are, they probably find the religions we've created and the means by which we worship them at best ludicrous and at worst insulting.

 

[ArtieE]

Atheism is an inherently fallible concept, as in there may well be Gods, but in a way unknowable to us

Those who say "unknowable" are agnostics.

 

[1137]

Here is a simple beginners guide to understanding the difference between atheists and agnostics. http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/Atheist-vs-Agnostic-Difference.htm There's no point in just quoting definitions if you don't understand the concepts.

Well that was cute, but I've literally addressed those misconceptions myself. Atheists believe there are no gods just as I believe there are gods. This doesn't make either of us dogmatic or closed minded, we aren't claiming knowledge or certainty. Just belief. If you see no reason to believe in gods and think they were made up by human, then you believe the universe is godless, even if you are open to changing your mind. QED.

 

[Milton Platt]

Atheism is an inherently fallible concept, as in there may well be Gods, but in a way unknowable to us ... hat is absolutely certain, for me, is that all the religions on this planet were created by humans to try and find an explanation for existence, and to try and create a coherent structure within which life could make sense, as the idea of an existential void is so scary.

So, my position is, there may well be a God, or Gods, although I doubt it, but if there are, they probably find the religions we've created and the means by which we worship them at best ludicrous and at worst insulting.

atheism does not claim there cannot be any gods. Atheism is the rejection of currently asserted gods because the evidence is lacking. I cannot say with certainty that there are no unicorns in the entire universe, either, but I would reject any claims of their existence until sufficiently justified by the evidence.

 

[1137]

Believing there are none is not the same as saying none exist. They are telling you that it is reasonable to assume something does not exist until there is sufficient evidence to support the claim that it does. Otherwise you are left in the position of believing that virtually every claim made must be true.

If I told you that green pixies created the universe, would you believe me or not accept the claim untill I was able to provide sufficiently convincing evidence of the claim.

Also, it would be erroneous for me to expect you to prove my claim is untrue, as it is an unfalsifiable claim. Likewise for a supernatural god.

Atheists and straw men really have a nice Bond, don't they. I'm getting pretty frustrated here, so how about you bold where I said atheism makes a certainty claim that no gods exist. I believe that there are no cosmic green pixies, and my reason for believing that is a complete lack of reasoning, evidence, and experience. Sure, there could be cosmic pixies, but BELIEVING there are not still leaves rooms for me to be wrong. This is unbelievably simply.

 

[Milton Platt]

Well that was cute, but I've literally addressed those misconceptions myself. Atheists believe there are no gods just as I believe there are gods. This doesn't make either of us dogmatic or closed minded, we aren't claiming knowledge or certainty. Just belief. If you see no reason to believe in gods and think they were made up by human, then you believe the universe is godless, even if you are open to changing your mind. QED.

Not all atheists claim there are no gods. Most simply reject the currently asserted notions of a god because the evidence is lacking. I also reject the claim that pink 8nicorns exist, but will admit that it is possiblemthat someplace in the universe there may be some prancing around. But that does not mean that I should assume they do and plan my life around the possibility.

 

[ArtieE]

Well that was cute, but I've literally addressed those misconceptions myself. Atheists believe there are no gods just as I believe there are gods.

Strong atheists believe there are no gods.

This doesn't make either of us dogmatic or closed minded, we aren't claiming knowledge or certainty. Just belief. If you see no reason to believe in gods and think they were made up by human, then you believe the universe is godless, even if you are open to changing your mind. QED.

If you see no reason to believe in gods and you see no reason to believe gods don't exist either you are a weak atheist. If you see no reason to believe in gods and actively believe gods don't exist you're a strong atheist.

 

[1137]

atheism does not claim there cannot be any gods. Atheism is the rejection of currently asserted gods because the evidence is lacking. I cannot say with certainty that there are no unicorns in the entire universe, either, but I would reject any claims of their existence until sufficiently justified by the evidence.

Yep. you believe the universe is godless and unicornless, but I'm site like every god philosopher would change your beliefs if given reason.

 

[Milton Platt]

Strong atheists believe there are no gods.If you see no reason to believe in gods and you see no reason to believe gods don't exist either you are a weak atheist. If you see no reason to believe in gods and actively believe gods don't exist you're a strong atheist.

Thank you! Theists get their shorts in a bunch if an atheist tries to tell them what they think or believe, but then readily try to define snother person's thoughts.

 

[1137]

Strong atheists believe there are no gods.If you see no reason to believe in gods and you see no reason to believe gods don't exist either you are a weak atheist. If you see no reason to believe in gods and actively believe gods don't exist you're a strong atheist.

Jesus Christ dude, a strong atheist or Gnostic atheist claims to know no gods exist, a dogmatic addition on top of their belief, same as any strong/Gnostic theist who claims to know there is a god. The weak, "agnostic" forms of both believe in (no) gods but are skeptical, open to new evidence, etc. Maybe YOU should look into atheism?

Positive atheism, also called strong atheism and hard atheism, is the form of atheism that asserts that no deities exist; negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any other type of atheism, i.e. where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities and does not explicitly assert that there are none.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

 

[1137]

Thank you! Theists get their shorts in a bunch if an atheist tries to tell them what they think or believe, but then readily try to define snother person's thoughts.

Damn us for using dictionary definitions and logic, people should be able to make up their own words!

 

[1137]

Yep. you believe the universe is godless and unicornless, but I'm site like every god philosopher would change your beliefs if given reason.

Should say sure like every good philosopher, but they refuse to fix the editing problems on this forum.

 

[ArtieE]

Jesus Christ dude, a strong atheist or Gnostic atheist claims to know no gods exist

No they don't. A strong atheist believes gods don't exist, a gnostic atheist knows gods don't exist. That is what your quote means.

 

[ArtieE]

Damn us for using dictionary definitions and logic, people should be able to make up their own words!

No they shouldn't. That's why I keep correcting you.

 

[1137]

No they don't. A strong atheist believes gods don't exist, a gnostic atheist knows gods don't exist. That is what your quote means.

Lol it literally says strong atheism. Ignoring you for being a fideist.

 

[ArtieE]

Lol it literally says strong atheism. Ignoring you for being a fideist.

LOL and here we can see what happens when a person just quotes a paragraph instead of actually understanding the concepts. Here is a simple list for you.

Theism: Belief in the existence of one or more gods.
Atheism: Absence of the above belief.

Theism: Belief in the existence of god(s).
Weak atheism: Absence of belief in the existence of gods, absence of belief that gods don't exist.
Strong atheism: Absence of belief in the existence of gods, presence of belief that gods don't exist.

Gnostic theist: Knows god(s) exist.
Gnostic atheist: Knows gods don't exist.
Agnostic theist: Believes but doesn't know god(s) exist.
Agnostic atheist: Doesn't know and doesn't believe gods exist.

Theism/atheism is about belief, gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge. Some people just can't tell the difference.

 

[cosmogenes]

There are or have been hundreds of religions (and denominations and sects), each with its own idea of what a "god" is. Further, if you ask the believers, their idea of those "same" gods will differ by each individual. This shows that all "gods" are mental creations that do "exist" in the mind of billions of believers. So, strictly speaking "atheism" is also incorrect. But he biggest problem with "gods" is the basic assumption that such a being exists outside of space and time, outside the Cosmos, but, as Carl Sagan defined it, the Cosmos is "all that is or ever was or ever will be." Therefore none of the "gods" can be real, as nothing can exist outside of "all that is or ever was".

 

[Copernicus]

...Atheists believe there are no gods just as I believe there are gods. This doesn't make either of us dogmatic or closed minded, we aren't claiming knowledge or certainty. Just belief. If you see no reason to believe in gods and think they were made up by human, then you believe the universe is godless, even if you are open to changing your mind. QED.

I disagree with the way you worded this: "Atheists believe there are no gods just as I believe there are gods." An atheist's rejection of belief is not necessarily equivalent to your belief, because the reasoning process that leads to rejection of belief is probably very different from that which leads you to belief. For one thing, belief in gods usually entails belief in cartesian (or substance) dualism. That is the doctrine that reality consists of two different "substances"--the physical and the spiritual/mental. Many of us believe that the so-called spiritual realm is really just a property of certain configurations of matter that we call "brains". There was a time when no such configurations existed in the universe, and science tells us that there will likely be a time again when none exist. Theists believe that gods, like other kinds of spiritual entities, can exist independently of physical reality. So what underlies my rejection of belief is not just a lack of evidence, but a different model of how the universe actually works.

It is possible to be a substance dualist--to believe in a spiritual realm of existence--and still reject belief in gods. So there are a lot of different flavors of atheism. I can understand why many, if not most, feel that they are more open than I am to belief in gods. However, my strong atheism is grounded in a complex set of other beliefs about the nature of reality, and those would have to change before I could consider gods any more believable than other mythical beings--vampires, ghouls, ghosts, leprechauns, angels, and demons.