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Turning to G-d does not stall progress of science. Does it ?

dad

Undefeated
The truthful religion has always been an ally of science,
I see, so true religion was heart and soul behind science inventing the atomic bomb and other womd. True religion was heart and soul behind science when it invented ways to change sexes and kill babies easy, and replace the truth of creation.

Sorry, don't think so, in fact the opposite is true.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
My understanding of natural is , whatever G-d has created is natural. Since G-d always existed, so He is out of the natural and there is nothing supernatural. Right, please?
I think you would run into some issues with that. If we go by the definition of natural:

1. existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

So it has to derive from nature and not being created unnaturally. If God is suppose to be eternal then he is not natural and therefore he can't have derived from nature.
If he is natural then it is even more relevant to ask who created him? Which obviously lead nowhere.

So regardless of how you look at it, either one would have to explain who created God or one would simply have to stick to the idea that God is eternal based purely on faith. Which means that it is nothing but a claim that can't be verified, which is what most believers will cling to.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Sad to say but it can. It did so in the past.
But now that the low hanging fruit of science
has been taken, religion might be less inclined
to tackle new, more less threatening scientific
ideas.
So now science focuses upon string theory,
the mass of a proton, global warming and the
like - it's a lot less threatening than evolution,
geological dating, Copernicus and the like.
But that wasn't "turning to God", it was turning to a dull and hidebound view of "God".
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
"However there was a problem with certain unstable orbits that he just couldn't find an answer for. But instead of continuing with the notion that if he just kept working on the problem he could eventually find an answer, he instead decided that these unstable orbits were 'the unknowable hand of God'."

Newton was a human being, he did not claim to be a perfect human being. Right, please?

Regards

Who cares whether or not Newton claimed to be a perfect human being? It has nothing to do with the question you asked. You asked if a belief in god has ever impeded the advance of science and I provided you of an example where it did. Right, please?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I believe in the God who is described in the Bible. This God has infinite wisdom and will therefore choose what is best. However, the Bible makes it clear that we should ask God for things in faith and it says that God will provide. The best example or evidence of this would be the life of Hudson Taylor, there is a biography about him.

So the millions of Jews who died in concentration camps and fervently prayed to God to provide them with safety from the gas chambers simply didn't pray to him with sufficient faith for God to intervene?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
In placing nature above the creator science has erred. Trying to explain away creation using natural explanations is ignoring God. That is a very grave sin and error.
Yes, yes Dad, we're used to this from you by now.:rolleyes: For the sake of other readers (it will be like water off a duck's back to you, I realise) I will now give my usual short speech on this tosh of yours:-

Science has succeeded, since its inception after the Renaissance, by leaving God out of its method of understanding nature. That is what enabled scientific progress to be made.

In the Medieval world, people labelled things they could not explain, such as thunder, earthquakes and epidemics of disease as "acts of God", beyond human understanding. That made them feel a bit better about accepting such things, no doubt, but it did not advance understanding of them in any way.

The change, at the dawn of the Enlightenment, was not to be content with passive acceptance, but to question and investigate by observing patterns in nature and linking them. It started with things such as Copernican astronomy and the success of Newton's laws in accounting for what was observed. Brilliant successes such as these led to the same type of thinking being applied to a wider range of phenomena. And there were more successes. So people realised this was a powerful way to understand nature. Clearly, then, there was no need to merely accept things as acts of God beyond our understanding.

In fact, thinking of phenomena in that way promoted just the sort of passive, unquestioning acceptance that had held humanity back in previous eras.

It is worth noting that most of the early scientists were religious believers and quite a number of them were clergymen. So this method of enquiry into nature was not a sign of "atheism" in any way, shape or form.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Turning to G-d does not stall progress of science.
Does it ?

Regards

A lot of atheists think it does. However, they're wrong. They've been sold a nonsense story from modern secular historians. Everyone should do themselves a favor and read this book (or try to, I'm not sure if I wasn't in the mood because alot of other stuff was going on, or if it was dry).

The Discoverers - Wikipedia

It's about how the Judeo-Christian world, but more specifically the reformed Jewish and the Christians created much of this modern world. Sorry Muslims, you didn't make all this.

Now, why would we think otherwise? Because we are sold this story about Galileo or Copernicus (these twits are too similar) getting condemned by the church because he tried to sell ppl on heliocentric theory. "See? See? Religion is anti-science!" Uhhh no, I don't see. What I do see is that this guy tried to quibble with the church over their own dogma, then went out of his way to play the martyr for it. It's one thing to quietly assert that perhaps the Earth is round or perhaps it revolves around the sun among the scientific community (which at the time was working with the church because of the scholastic movement), it's quite another to call the church out on it's own theology. Since atheists have no sense of equivalency, I'll try to explain. Rhis would be like C.S. Lewis, if he were around with Dawkins basically coming to his place and publicly shouting "Look! Look! This proves God exists!" with a bunch of atheists around. That's how you publicly shame people. And usually how you die. In fact, the Pope supported Copernicus's astronomical reforms.

Christian History Timeline: Christianity and the Scientific Revolution | Christian History Magazine

This theory that religion somehow opposed science is calked the "warfare theory" and originated in the French Revolution as a way to discredit Catholic Church. Too bad it's nonsense.

The Christian Face of the Scientific Revolution: Christian History Interview - Natural Adversaries?

In fact, the only religions to have nearly our technological strides for their era was Taoism and maybe the Egyptian/Roman religion. China (and Japan) as a result of alchemy, mostly from emperors seeking elixirs of immortality, produced a great number of side advances, like crude seismic devices and gunpowder. The Egyptian/Roman religion like created advances in architecture and the latter had created so. However, there are limits. Taoism for instance believed that an ideal life is less suited for labor-saving devices, and that an ideal state has people live contentedly in villages and never wander to another country ( proof that China has lost the Tao, right now) even though the land is close enough that one can "hear the cock crow". And the two pagan religions for the most part were advancing mainly due to their state rather than because anything was intrinsically geared to the study of science.

Christianity, on the other hand, was involved in a deity that created things, and was curious about the natural world, having none of old Judaism's hangups with "tradition." Lacking a strong teaching about mitzvahs , Christian people instead focused on knowing God and his creation, and there was a strong mentality that people become "co-creators." But while Christianity specifically saw science as a means to understand God better, they have in recent times put the brakes on UNETHICAL science. Cloning people in a laboratory, harvesting little children for organs, making nukes (or worse)? I don't think these are ways we should use science.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Who cares whether or not Newton claimed to be a perfect human being? It has nothing to do with the question you asked. You asked if a belief in god has ever impeded the advance of science and I provided you of an example where it did. Right, please?
That was not the question asked in the OP.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
"some of the greatest discoveries have been made by scientists who gave a belief in god"

It gives evidence that the truthful religion is an ally of science. Right,please?

Regards


No, it gives evidence that some religious scientists put science above religion.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
A lot of atheists think it does. However, they're wrong. They've been sold a nonsense story from modern secular historians. Everyone should do themselves a favor and read this book (or try to, I'm not sure if I wasn't in the mood because alot of other stuff was going on, or if it was dry).

The Discoverers - Wikipedia

It's about how the Judeo-Christian world, but more specifically the reformed Jewish and the Christians created much of this modern world. Sorry Muslims, you didn't make all this.

Now, why would we think otherwise? Because we are sold this story about Galileo or Copernicus (these twits are too similar) getting condemned by the church because he tried to sell ppl on heliocentric theory. "See? See? Religion is anti-science!" Uhhh no, I don't see. What I do see is that this guy tried to quibble with the church over their own dogma, then went out of his way to play the martyr for it. It's one thing to quietly assert that perhaps the Earth is round or perhaps it revolves around the sun among the scientific community (which at the time was working with the church because of the scholastic movement), it's quite another to call the church out on it's own theology. Since atheists have no sense of equivalency, I'll try to explain. Rhis would be like C.S. Lewis, if he were around with Dawkins basically coming to his place and publicly shouting "Look! Look! This proves God exists!" with a bunch of atheists around. That's how you publicly shame people. And usually how you die. In fact, the Pope supported Copernicus's astronomical reforms.

Christian History Timeline: Christianity and the Scientific Revolution | Christian History Magazine

This theory that religion somehow opposed science is calked the "warfare theory" and originated in the French Revolution as a way to discredit Catholic Church. Too bad it's nonsense.

The Christian Face of the Scientific Revolution: Christian History Interview - Natural Adversaries?

In fact, the only religions to have nearly our technological strides for their era was Taoism and maybe the Egyptian/Roman religion. China (and Japan) as a result of alchemy, mostly from emperors seeking elixirs of immortality, produced a great number of side advances, like crude seismic devices and gunpowder. The Egyptian/Roman religion like created advances in architecture and the latter had created so. However, there are limits. Taoism for instance believed that an ideal life is less suited for labor-saving devices, and that an ideal state has people live contentedly in villages and never wander to another country ( proof that China has lost the Tao, right now) even though the land is close enough that one can "hear the cock crow". And the two pagan religions for the most part were advancing mainly due to their state rather than because anything was intrinsically geared to the study of science.

Christianity, on the other hand, was involved in a deity that created things, and was curious about the natural world, having none of old Judaism's hangups with "tradition." Lacking a strong teaching about mitzvahs , Christian people instead focused on knowing God and his creation, and there was a strong mentality that people become "co-creators." But while Christianity specifically saw science as a means to understand God better, they have in recent times put the brakes on UNETHICAL science. Cloning people in a laboratory, harvesting little children for organs, making nukes (or worse)? I don't think these are ways we should use science.

Galileo's work was supported by the church.
The Catholic Church took the discoveries of Galileo to show the world.
Galileo couldn't prove his theories yet insisted they were facts.
Galileo earned the wrath of the Pope (once his friend) by writing a book ridiculing the Pope.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Galileo's work was supported by the church.
The Catholic Church took the discoveries of Galileo to show the world.
Galileo couldn't prove his theories yet insisted they were facts.
Galileo earned the wrath of the Pope (once his friend) by writing a book ridiculing the Pope.
Exactly. Though it seems most people don't think Galileo set out to ridicule him. To quote Wiki:

"He revived his project of writing a book on the subject, encouraged by the election of Cardinal Maffeo Barberini as Pope Urban VIII in 1623. Barberini was a friend and admirer of Galileo, and had opposed the admonition of Galileo in 1616. Galileo's resulting book, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was published in 1632, with formal authorization from the Inquisition and papal permission.[87]

Earlier, Pope Urban VIII had personally asked Galileo to give arguments for and against heliocentrism in the book, and to be careful not to advocate heliocentrism. He made another request, that his own views on the matter be included in Galileo's book. Only the latter of those requests was fulfilled by Galileo.

Whether unknowingly or deliberately, Simplicio, the defender of the Aristotelian geocentric view in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, was often caught in his own errors and sometimes came across as a fool. Indeed, although Galileo states in the preface of his book that the character is named after a famous Aristotelian philosopher (Simplicius in Latin, "Simplicio" in Italian), the name "Simplicio" in Italian also has the connotation of "simpleton".[88][89] This portrayal of Simplicio made Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systemsappear as an advocacy book: an attack on Aristotelian geocentrism and defence of the Copernican theory. Unfortunately for his relationship with the Pope, Galileo put the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio.

Most historians agree Galileo did not act out of malice and felt blindsided by the reaction to his book.[a] However, the Pope did not take the suspected public ridicule lightly, nor the Copernican advocacy."

Galileo became a victim of the paranoia at the time over heresies and the spread of protestantism, and ended up under house arrest.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I do not think we are arguing the same thing here. Good results and bad results can be objective evidence, but if the methodologies are repeated under the same conditions, results should be in the same range of outcomes, though not the exact same results for the repeated measures.

Perhaps I was wrong and I am not following you as I thought I was.

The quality of objective evidence should not make it less objective unless there is subjective bias at play.
And what is one's understanding of subjective, please?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Science is all about trying to find out why things are the way they are.

When you say, "God did it," this will slow science.

When religion ruled the world, science was slowed to almost nothing.
The things will be the same even if there is no science. Right,please?
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
It is only my opinion and I really do not know exactly what a "truthful" religion means, but I agree that honest religious practice benefits from a recognition of the value of science. If by truthful, you mean one that is honest and values the precepts of its own foundation, then I would very much agree with you.
Every religion that presents a truthful approach on an issue, to that extent it is truthful and from G-d. Right,please?

Regards
 
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