Twelve year old commits suicide -- because he was taunted for being gay.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Christians cherry pick the bible....coming down hard on Gays, and ignoring President W. Bush's unprovoked attack on Iraq, killing a million people, and torture camps.

That's one of the many problems I have with evangelicals, to be honest. They rant and rave about homosexuals and transgenders because they don't approve of LGBT sexuality, but these same Christians willfully turn a blind eye to the plethora of sins by a twice divorced, thrice-married, philandering adulterer who bragged about inappropriately groping women, who had an affair with a porn star and a Playboy Bunny while married to his third wife (who was his mistress when he was married to his second wife), and who would "check in on" naked young women and teenage girls backstage of beauty pageants. They are not consistent in their morally indignant rants regarding what they perceive to be sins. It's difficult to take them seriously when they get up on their soapbox.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Christians need to get their priorities straight. Life comes first, then chastising little kids over their sexual preferences comes with a much lower priority (if at all).

I wish, I really, truly wish, that there were some way to help people to understand that sexual orientation is not a "preference." But alas, this seems to be pretty much impossible.

Although, when you think about it, if who you are attracted to is a preference, it really ought to be something that could be easily changed -- yet I've never found anybody who could tell me how they would change their "preference" from one gender to the other.

 

[Aštra’el]

I wish, I really, truly wish, that there were some way to help people to understand that sexual orientation is not a "preference." But alas, this seems to be pretty much impossible.

You weren’t born homosexual. You developed into a homosexual. What you call “sexual orientation” and what she calls sexual preference” is referring to the same thing.

Although, when you think about it, if who you are attracted to is a preference, it really ought to be something that could be easily changed -- yet I've never found anybody who could tell me how they would change their "preference" from one gender to the other.

Altering/ adjusting your “sexual orientation” is easier for some- particularly younger people, who are openminded/ malleable/ social/ attractive/ etc. It can be very difficult for others- particularly older people and those who are close minded/ antisocial/ unattractive/ etc... but it is not impossible. Though, as you get older you become far less malleable and more set in your ways, and your body withers away leaving you with far less opportunity than in your youth... a bleak future that awaits anyone set to live a long life.

But I mean, dude, lets be honest. If 25-year-old-you got locked in a bunker for 10 years with bunch of hot supermodel nymphos (all female), I doubt you would have walked out a “gay” man. I doubt you would have just sat in the corner and read the vault newspaper the whole time.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You weren’t born homosexual. You developed into a homosexual. What you call “sexual orientation” and what she calls sexual preference” is referring to the same thing.

I see. And you know that how, exactly? I mean, if sexual attraction is wired into the brain (which seems to be the case), how does one alter one's own brain to achieve the result of being homosexual or heterosexual? And if sexual attraction is not wired into the brain, where is it? Citations would be appreciated.

Altering/ adjusting your “sexual orientation” is easier for some- particularly younger people, who are openminded/ malleable/ social/ attractive/ etc. It can be very difficult for others- particularly older people and those who are close minded/ antisocial/ unattractive/ etc... but it is not impossible. Though, as you get older you become far less malleable and more set in your ways, and your body withers away leaving you with far less opportunity than in your youth... a bleak future that awaits anyone set to live a long life.

Once again, I'd be most interested to see where you've managed to gather these most impressive "facts" from.

But I mean, dude, lets be honest. If 25-year-old-you got locked in a bunker for 10 years with bunch of hot supermodel nymphos (all female), I doubt you would have walked out a “gay” man. I doubt you would have just sat in the corner and read the vault newspaper the whole time.

Then can we assume that if you had been locked up in prison with a bunch of uber-masculine cellmates who introduced you to the joys of being their butt-boy for 10 years, you'd have difficulty finding your way back to normal, you-on-top heterosexual relations?

 

[Aštra’el]

@Evangelicalhumanist

We can get together and compose some amazing erotica sometime if you like. I bet we could win something. But to answer your question, prison life can certainly affect people’s sexual preferences/ orientation, which is actually the point I was making. “Hetero” women who spend enough time inside often develop “bisexual”, sometimes even permanently ditching their attraction for the opposite sex and go full lesbo. Some might even lose their desire for sex entirely. All of this applies to men as well.

For others... all it might take is some crazy times in college mixed with a bit of open mindedness to understand that our “sexual orientation” has been shaped by our thoughts and experiences.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

@Evangelicalhumanist

We can get together and compose some amazing erotica sometime if you like. I bet we could win something. But to answer your question, prison life can certainly affect people’s sexual preferences/ orientation, which is actually the point I was making. “Hetero” women who spend enough time inside often develop “bisexual”, sometimes even permanently ditching their attraction for the opposite sex and go full lesbo. Some might even lose their desire for sex entirely. All of this applies to men as well.

For others... all it might take is some crazy times in college mixed with a bit of open mindedness to understand that our “sexual orientation” has been shaped by our thoughts and experiences.

My own understanding of the many studies and reports on this topic suggests, to me (perhaps an imperfect reader), that most people who engage in sexual relations outside their normal orientation return almost immediately to their normal orientation, once the restrictions are removed. Kinsey certainly says this.

Sexual behaviour is quite different from sexual orientation. An incarcerated man, surrounded by nothing but other males, may well be persuaded to satisfy his sexual urges with another male (quite possibly smaller, younger, maybe more effeminate), but on release, access to females is usually quite enough to cause him to ignore (and possibly denigrate) those experiences.

 

[Kenny]

Maybe we could call in an exorcist for my brother?

LOL... or a better teacher.

 

[1213]

?

Sorry, if the questions we not clear, I try to reform them so that they would be clearer:

Why should we blame some people, if the person himself didn't do so?

Why would person kill himself, if he believes he is going to hell?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Sorry, if the questions we not clear, I try to reform them so that they would be clearer:

Why should we blame some people, if the person himself didn't do so?

Why would person kill himself, if he believes he is going to hell?

Because when people do bad things, even though the person they did them to may forgive them, they are still culpable. Wrong is wrong.

Because he was already in a living hell. Why suffer through both? (And maybe he didn't believe in the second one, even though he was living in the first one and knew it all too well.)

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because when people do bad things, even though the person they did them to may forgive them, they are still culpable. Wrong is wrong.

Because he was already in a living hell. Why suffer through both? (And maybe he didn't believe in the second one, even though he was living in the first one and knew it all too well.)

Unfortunately people who has never been bullied to the point where ending the life seems like the only option, can seldom understand what words can do to those who already feel as second hand humans.

 

[Link]

Really, you can't be serious. I don't think anybody has ever built a strawman that big before.

What's the strawman? How did I misrepresent your argument?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What's the strawman? How did I misrepresent your argument?

Because the person who "opposes homosexuality" IS a bigot. No two ways about it. Homosexuality is not something that you choose, but rather simply another expression of being, although apparently you will never accept that. But your acceptance is not required to make a thing true.

It's like saying "I oppose blue eyes," or "I oppose every skin colour but my own." Those are bigotted statements, as is your strawman example.

 

[Link]

Because the person who "opposes homosexuality" IS a bigot. No two ways about it. Homosexuality is not something that you choose, but rather simply another expression of being, although apparently you will never accept that. But your acceptance is not required to make a thing true.

It's like saying "I oppose blue eyes," or "I oppose every skin colour but my own." Those are bigotted statements, as is your strawman example.

You are missing the point. Whether it's true or not, is irrelevant. From viewpoint of Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is evil.

From your viewpoint we are bigots.

Anyways, my viewpoint it's not the stance, but the uncompassionate way they went about it.

Lut and Abraham had a lot of compassion for the people about to destroyed though they were repulsed by their ways.

My best friend is bisexual and they know I condemn their bisexuality. They won't commit suicide due to my bigotry believe me.

It's how you go about it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You are missing the point. Whether it's true or not, is irrelevant. From viewpoint of Abrahamic faiths, homosexuality is evil.

From your viewpoint we are bigots.

No, from my point of view that's ignorance based on subservience to superannuated beliefs from a period of complete ignorance about science.

Anyways, my viewpoint it's not the stance, but the uncompassionate way they went about it.

Lut and Abraham had a lot of compassion for the people about to destroyed though they were repulsed by their ways.

You do know that is myth and legend, don't you?

My best friend is bisexual and they know I condemn their bisexuality. They won't commit suicide due to my bigotry believe me.

It's how you go about it.

I would never call someone who "condemned" a fundamental part of my nature a "friend." I might tolerate them, but little more.

In any case, I strongly doubt that your "best friend" is a vulnerable 12 year old.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 2018 review, published in JAMA Pediatrics, compiled data from 35 previous studies. The analysis involved close to 2.4 million heterosexual youth and 113,468 LGBTQ youth, ages 12 to 20, from 10 countries.

The results included the following LGBTQ suicide statistics:

• LGBTQ youth were 3.5 times as likely to attempt suicide as their heterosexual peers
• Transgender teens were 5.87 times more likely
• Gay and lesbian youth were 3.71 times more likely
• Bisexual youth were 3.69 times more likely to attempt suicide than teens who identified as heterosexual.

Furthermore, the national Youth Risk Behavior Survey (YRBS), conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, found that 40 percent of high school students who identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual or questioning (unsure of their orientation) have seriously considering suicide.
Source: LGBTQ Suicide Statistics Show Greater Risk Among Young Teens

 

[Link]

I would never call someone who despised a fundamental part of my nature a "friend." I might tolerate them, but little more.

They hate the core of who I am (religious), but we still have aspects we appreciate about each other.

 

[Link]

In any case, I strongly doubt that your "best friend" is a vulnerable 12 year old.

I'm trying to get your point you trying to make. A lot of people get bullied, and commit suicide for that. Are you saying the stance against homosexuality should be forbidden because LGBTQ commit suicide due to it being condemned?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm trying to get your point you trying to make. A lot of people get bullied, and commit suicide for that. Are you saying the stance against homosexuality should be forbidden because LGBTQ commit suicide due to it being condemned?

I do not get in the way of free speech. I am, however, trying to make you understand that hateful words can be extremely hurtful -- especially with the young, and even more especially when it is about something over which they have zero control. I know this at first hand -- I was a boy who turned 12 in 1960 when such hatreds were much more rampant. I can tell you that it took all the strength I possessed to get through it. You have zero idea what that was like.

I am also trying to demonstrate that people who pretend to follow the Golden Rule really ought to bear that in mind -- otherwise when they claim to be adherents of the GR, they are lying to themselves and others.

Judaism

Hillel the Elder (c. 110 BCE – 10 CE),[26] used this verse as a most important message of the Torah for his teachings. Once, he was challenged by a gentile who asked to be converted under the condition that the Torah be explained to him while he stood on one foot. Hillel accepted him as a candidate for conversion to Judaism but, drawing on Leviticus 19:18, briefed the man:

What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.

— Babylonian Talmud[27]

Islam

From the hadith, the collected oral and written accounts of Muhammad and his teachings during his lifetime:

A Bedouin came to the prophet, grabbed the stirrup of his camel and said: O the messenger of God! Teach me something to go to heaven with it. Prophet said: "As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them. Now let the stirrup go!" [This maxim is enough for you; go and act in accordance with it!]"

— Kitab al-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 146

Christianity

The Old Testament Deuterocanonical books of Tobit and Sirach, accepted as part of the Scriptural canon by Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Non-Chalcedonian Churches, express a negative form of the golden rule:

"Do to no one what you yourself dislike."

— Tobit 4:15
"Recognize that your neighbor feels as you do, and keep in mind your own dislikes."

— Sirach 31:15

 

[Link]

What's the difference in that Islam condemns anyone who has sex outside of permitted laws (Marriage and Muta)? Maybe there are other factors then the condemnation.

 

[savagewind]

82% of everyone in Tennessee identifies as Christian.

Do you call that proof?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Do you call that proof?

Are you trying to say that if I can't prove that Christians might say something hurtful to gays, then they don't? QED? Or that it was therefore only the atheists?

However you answer, I put it to you that the organizations that back "conversion therapy" to "cure" gays, are just about universally allied (like NARTH) to LDS and Fundamentalist Christian groups. That in itself is suggestive.