Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.

[Hockeycowboy]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 claims that the dead know nothing. So, how is it that a deceased Samuel knew Saul and was able to talk with him? In my opinion, that's an inconsistent message, but of course, I don't believe the Bible is accurate. What are your thoughts on the verse?

Hey Sgt Pepper, hope you are doing well.

I somehow got this as a notification from you in my alerts, but I see you sent this in response to Brian2.

Do you want to know my reply?

 

[Kenny]

Sorry but I see nothing in the verses before or after John 3:13 that says anything about anyone going to heaven. And nothing about pre or post resurrection. Can you quote ANY verse that says ANYONE has gone to heaven? Except Jesus. This is exactly what Satan wants. For people to read a very plain and clear verse and try their best to find some way to say it does not mean what it says. No man has ascended to heaven except Jesus. This verse was written down by someone after the time of Jesus. If it was not true that person would have said that it only applied pre resurrection.

I'm not sure I understand... I gave you some scriptures already (In Revelation).

Please quote the verse you reference.

 

[Brian2]

To believe that, is to contradict other Scripture.
Why would Samuel be a “old man” as a spirit? As a Spirit Creature, he would be looking youthful! And vibrant!
It was only to fool Saul… “the dead know nothing”… so it was a demon.

I think you are making stuff up about what Samuel should have looked like.

Since God had removed His protection from Saul, no doubt wicked spirits were allowed to maneuver events to fulfill this ‘prophecy.’

No doubt.

Huh? Of course I wouldn’t believe it. It was a demon.
Jehovah had the account recorded in His Word, as a warning that this is one way Satan and his horde of angels / demons mislead people. — Revelation 12:9.

God does tell us in the story that the spirit was Samuel. Did a demon record that or was God trying to deceive people and confuse people?

If death was really a portal to life in another realm, then why didn’t Jehovah explain that to Adam? God didn’t say anything else….about burning, or anything! (Don't you think that would be sort of important to mention?!) Then, after Adam sinned, Jehovah simply said “you will return to the ground….For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”

God was talking to Adam’s ‘person’, not his body.

A spirit does not become dust and you know that the Bible tells us that our spirit goes back to God who gave it. (Eccles 12:7) You should not be speaking about man being dust as if that is all that man is.
You know that humans are a combination of the physical and spiritual. The spirit starts as just a life force and gives life to the body. It is not really that the physical becomes alive, it is always the spirit that is alive in us and animates this otherwise dead material body. God is not the Father of a material body and not the Father of a life force, an 'it'.
The scriptures call this body our tent because we live in it.
The scriptures say our spirit knows our mind because it is alive and not just a force.
The scriptures call God the Father of our spirit, spirits and say that

1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?
2Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, 14 because I know that this tent will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times.…

 

[Hockeycowboy]

A spirit does not become dust and you know that the Bible tells us that our spirit goes back to God who gave it. (Eccles 12:7)

Yes, “back to God who gave it.”
It is an “it.”

And Psalms 146:4 simply says about man, “His spirit goes out…”

Just like the lightbulb “goes out” when the electricity is turned off.

How does it go “back to God”?
In the same sense as that electricity…. it “goes back” to the Power Company, they’re the ones who generated it, so it’s theirs. It will certainly be them to make you pay for it! Haha.
And when the power “goes out,” everything electric is ‘dead.’

And there’s no difference between our (human) spirit / life force, and that of animals. - Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

You should not be speaking about man being dust as if that is all that man is.

It’s not me. Genesis 3:19

So you’re claiming that more was going to happen to Adam at his death, and God just didn’t tell him about it? That is called ‘lying by omission.’

The spirit starts as just a life force and gives life to the body. It is not really that the physical becomes alive, it is always the spirit that is alive in us and animates this otherwise dead material body. God is not the Father of a material body and not the Father of a life force, an 'it'.
The scriptures call this body our tent because we live in it.
The scriptures say our spirit knows our mind because it is alive and not just a force.
The scriptures call God the Father of our spirit, spirits and say that

1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore, we have all had earthly fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them. Should we not much more submit to the Father of our spirits and live?
2Peter 1:13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of my body, 14 because I know that this tent will soon be laid aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to ensure that after my departure, you will be able to recall these things at all times.…

And the Bible also talks about “the spirit of the world” (1 Corinthians 2:12); Samson’s ‘spirit returning’ (Judges 15:19); to “worship with spirit” (John 4:24); “the spirit of wisdom” (Exodus 28:3); etc.

the Greek word “pneuma” & Hebrew word “ru’ach” translated spirit can have different meanings….

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/tl/r1/lp-e?q=spirit

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I said nothing about an immortal soul.
When Adam was created the parts (body and spirit) were put together and Adam became a living soul. The totality of Adam is the soul.
When Adam died his body became a dead soul but the spirit part continued living. This spirit part, even though not a complete person, became the soul of Adam after the death of the body. That spirit part was then the totality of the person even though the person was not complete without a body.
See Matthew 10:28
JWs have the wrong idea about death. Full death is the death of the body and the spirit part of man. When the body dies the spiritual soul does not die, so the person is not completely dead at that point. (see Matt 10:28 again) Death is the wages of sin but full death does not come to a person unless that person is destroyed completely, body and soul, in the lake of fire, the second death.
The lake of fire is not a double jeopardy, it is not a second judgement for sin, it is the continuation of judgement and God judges a person on what they have done in this life and makes a final pronouncement on whether the person will get the full penalty (the second death) or not.
Man is made from dust and spirit, which is breathed into the dust.
We return to the dust when our body dies but that says nothing about what happens to the spirit, the inner man, the soul that lives on after the death of the body.
JWs ignore that part of man and by so doing they make a resurrection impossible. Without a spirit/soul (our living essence) to go back into a body there can be no resurrection, all there can be is the making of a copy of the dead person's body and putting life into it. God can make one copy or 1000 copies and they would all be the same, and so there could be 1000 people running around all thinking they were me.
The real resurrection is when the spiritual soul is put in another body so that it is actually I who is raised back to life in a body.
Certainly the body looks like it is asleep but scripture does not teach unconsciousness after death. Jesus did not teach that in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The OT does not teach that in the story of the witch of Endor. Jesus spoke of one of His companions on the cross (a thief) being in paradise with Him that very day.
JWs like to call death "sleep" but in sleep the person still exists and JWs teach that a person does not exist after death, that the whole person has disintegrated into nothing. That sleep teaching is therefore not completely honest imo.

Matthew 10:28 teaches the soul can be destroyed according to Jesus.
Luke chapter 16 is a story illustration (parable) and Not a real happening.
ALL the people of Hebrews 11th chapter will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
- Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
- www.jw.org

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The dead in Christ are raised before the Millennium and all the other dead people are not raised until after the millennium. (Rev 20:4-6)Whom do you say is alive during the Millennium?

Yes, agree the 'dead in Christ' have that first or earlier resurrection to Heaven - Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10
Those ' dead in Christ ' are Jesus' 'spiritual brothers' (Matthew 25:40)
The earthly resurrection takes place on Earth during the Millennium and resurrected people can still fall away.
So, the faithful dead after the Millennium are the one who come to or to gain everlasting life on Earth.
At the end of the Millennium all who prove righteous or remain righteous can at that time ' come to life ' Everlasting Life on Earth as was offered to Adam before his downfall.
The Resurrection is for both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The righteous have the opportunity to remain righteous if they want to.
The un-righteous have the opportunity to become righteous and remain righteous if they want to.
This is why the word " if " is used at 1 John 1:7 (IF)
After Millennium's end we will know beyond doubt who are the proven righteous ones gaining life forever and ever.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'm not sure I understand... I gave you some scriptures already (In Revelation).

Please quote the verse you reference.

John 3:13 Very plain and clear words spoken by Jesus himself. No man has ascended up to heaven. Notice the word heaven. Not paradise or Abraham's bosom or God's kingdom. No man has ascended to HEAVEN. There is NO scripture that says anyone has or will go to heaven. If this is such a major Christian belief you would think the gospel writers would repeat it many times. But no. No one has ascended to heaven. Believe Jesus or not.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, “back to God who gave it.”
It is an “it.”

It is spirit, it is part of man. Man is more than the physical.
The "it" is no more than grammatical and in the English translation.
"It" has no male or female gender but "it" is alive, and in fact it is the life of the body.
As shown in the rest of the Bible, the spirit of man is more than just a life force however.

And Psalms 146:4 simply says about man, “His spirit goes out…”

Just like the lightbulb “goes out” when the electricity is turned off.

How does it go “back to God”?
In the same sense as that electricity…. it “goes back” to the Power Company, they’re the ones who generated it, so it’s theirs. It will certainly be them to make you pay for it! Haha.
And when the power “goes out,” everything electric is ‘dead.’

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes,
in human beings, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
5 Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob,
whose hope is in the Lord their God.

This translation has "departs". You can have the analogy of a light bulb but that "goes out" is not what is meant. The spirit, an actual spirit in us, departs from us at death. As Jesus said, "Into your hands I commit my spirit".
Notice the spirit belongs to Jesus and it goes back to God to take care of it.
It is this spirit which is the soul which lives on after the death of the body. (Matt 110:28)
It is this soul which comes back into the body to bring it back to life. (1Kings 17:22)
(when I spoke of Psalm 146 I think I was referring to the use JWs wrongly make of it by saying that it shows that there is no consciousness after death.)

And there’s no difference between our (human) spirit / life force, and that of animals. - Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Eccles 3:18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”
22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

I suppose you believe everything is meaningless and we have no advantage over the animals but I believe everything is not meaningless and we do have advantage over the animals and our life comes directly from God and we are set up for fellowship with God.
JWs like to understand Ecclesiastes literally when it suites their purpose.

It’s not me. Genesis 3:19

So you’re claiming that more was going to happen to Adam at his death, and God just didn’t tell him about it? That is called ‘lying by omission.’

I'm sure JWs know of the term "gradual revelation" and how God does not, and has not in the Bible, told us all things about a subject at once.
Judging by the JW use of earlier revelation on a subject and ignoring later revelation, maybe you did not realise that.
But really "no". God had already told us in the creation that we are both spirit and dust and so going back to dust is plainly only what happens to the part that is made from dust. It is just that God did not say at that stage what happens to the spirit. So even with your belief about "spirit" you could still accuse God of lying by omission if you like.

And the Bible also talks about “the spirit of the world” (1 Corinthians 2:12); Samson’s ‘spirit returning’ (Judges 15:19); to “worship with spirit” (John 4:24); “the spirit of wisdom” (Exodus 28:3); etc.

the Greek word “pneuma” & Hebrew word “ru’ach” translated spirit can have different meanings….

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/tl/r1/lp-e?q=spirit

It's great that JWs believe that "spirit" can have different meanings but when it comes to the meaning that we are spirit living in a body, a tent, you somehow don't want to see that meaning even though it is plainly spoken of.

 

[Brian2]

Matthew 10:28 teaches the soul can be destroyed according to Jesus.

Yes it does and it also teaches that the soul is alive after the death of our body.

Luke chapter 16 is a story illustration (parable) and Not a real happening.

Whether it is a parable or not is unimportant. The story shows what the Jews believed about death. Hades is the place of the dead and they are conscious and some are comforted and others in suffering.

ALL the people of Hebrews 11th chapter will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
- Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39
- www.jw.org

They were longing for a heavenly country and God has prepared a city for them, the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven when God and the Lamb are and where God will be with His people forever.(Heb 11:16)

 

[Brian2]

Yes, agree the 'dead in Christ' have that first or earlier resurrection to Heaven - Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10
Those ' dead in Christ ' are Jesus' 'spiritual brothers' (Matthew 25:40)
The earthly resurrection takes place on Earth during the Millennium and resurrected people can still fall away.
So, the faithful dead after the Millennium are the one who come to or to gain everlasting life on Earth.
At the end of the Millennium all who prove righteous or remain righteous can at that time ' come to life ' Everlasting Life on Earth as was offered to Adam before his downfall.
The Resurrection is for both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The righteous have the opportunity to remain righteous if they want to.
The un-righteous have the opportunity to become righteous and remain righteous if they want to.
This is why the word " if " is used at 1 John 1:7 (IF)
After Millennium's end we will know beyond doubt who are the proven righteous ones gaining life forever and ever.

You seem to have the resurrection of people during the 1000 years and Rev 20:5 says:
Rev 20: And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Kenny]

John 3:13 Very plain and clear words spoken by Jesus himself. No man has ascended up to heaven. Notice the word heaven. Not paradise or Abraham's bosom or God's kingdom. No man has ascended to HEAVEN. There is NO scripture that says anyone has or will go to heaven. If this is such a major Christian belief you would think the gospel writers would repeat it many times. But no. No one has ascended to heaven. Believe Jesus or not.

Again... as I said before... that was before the resurrection.

Now the portals of Heaven have opened and the saint came marching in... He brought those who were in the captivity of Paradise to the place of union with God (as demonstrated by the scriptures I gave).

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Again... as I said before... that was before the resurrection.

Now the portals of Heaven have opened and the saint came marching in... He brought those who were in the captivity of Paradise to the place of union with God (as demonstrated by the scriptures I gave).

The gospels were written AFTER the resurrection so the writers had a chance to explain. None of the verses you mention use the word heaven. Jesus said heaven. You are free to believe whatever you want. I believe Jesus. And as I said before, this is exactly what Satan wants. Take a very plain and clear verse and look for any excuse why it does not mean what it says. I am afraid you have fallen into his trap.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You seem to have the resurrection of people during the 1000 years and Rev 20:5 says:
Rev 20: And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Yes, Revelation 20:6 is about the first or earlier resurrection. Revelation 20:4 is about Revelation 5:9-10.
Those of verse 4 are the ones of verse 6 who govern with Christ as kings and priests for a thousand years.
If No one was on Earth there would be No need for kings and priests governing over Earth, earthly subjects.
Heavenly Resurrection is for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are considered as saints/holy ones.
The rest of resurrected mankind can inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
By the end of the thousand years all the people living at that time will have been restored to perfect human life.
Remember 1 Corinthians 15:26 because No one alive at that end time is affected by adamic sin (sin passed down to us from fallen father Adam) - Romans 5:12
'Enemy death' from the curse of Adam's sin is gone being completely removed under Christ's rule over Earth.
So, in that way those who choose to remain righteous ' come to life ' as ' now perfect humans ' as Adam and Eve originally were without sickness or death with the opportunity to live and Enjoy Life Forever on Earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The gospels were written AFTER the resurrection so the writers had a chance to explain. None of the verses you mention use the word heaven. Jesus said heaven..........

Of course Jesus said Heaven. Jesus opened up the way to Heaven - Luke 22:28-30; Matthew 19:28
Heaven for people like those of Daniel 7:18; Daniel 7:27.
Jesus does Not govern over Earth by himself - Daniel 7:13-14; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Jesus did Not promise Heaven at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11 but promised ' Earth ' for humble meek people.
No one who died before Jesus died is offered Heaven - John 3:13 including King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
The living figurative ' sheep ' at Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-34,37) can remain alive on Earth and be here on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' Millennial Reign over Earth for a thousand years with everlasting life on Earth in view as originally offered to Adam and Eve before their downfall. Life without death - Isaiah 25:8 - perfectly healthy life as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It is spirit, it is part of man........................
It's great that JWs believe that "spirit" can have different meanings but when it comes to the meaning that we are spirit living in a body, a tent, you somehow don't want to see that meaning even though it is plainly spoken of.

Spirit is also part of a high-spirited horse.
Pep Rallies are designed to create school spirit.
Yes, different meanings - www.jw.org

One's spirit goes out (Ecclesiastes 12:7) 'returning' to God.
Just as a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but is simply 'returned' to the hands of the owner.
So, the 'sleeping un-conscious dead' are in God's safe hand til Resurrection Day - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
That is when the ' spirit of life ' is 'returned' awakened from death's sleep.
The dead sleep according to Jesus - John 11:11-14.
Silence in death - Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18
The dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

[Kenny]

The gospels were written AFTER the resurrection so the writers had a chance to explain. None of the verses you mention use the word heaven. Jesus said heaven. You are free to believe whatever you want. I believe Jesus. And as I said before, this is exactly what Satan wants. Take a very plain and clear verse and look for any excuse why it does not mean what it says. I am afraid you have fallen into his trap.

So where is the throne?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So where is the throne?

Of course God is in heaven. God. Not people.

 

[Brian2]

One's spirit goes out (Ecclesiastes 12:7) 'returning' to God.
Just as a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but is simply 'returned' to the hands of the owner.
So, the 'sleeping un-conscious dead' are in God's safe hand til Resurrection Day - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
That is when the ' spirit of life ' is 'returned' awakened from death's sleep.
The dead sleep according to Jesus - John 11:11-14.
Silence in death - Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18
The dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5

IMO you and no doubt the Watch Tower are being dishonest in that argument.
The teaching of the JWs is that the "spirit" is a life force only and contains nothing of the dead person.
You have made your argument sound like the teachings of regular Christianity as if you teach that the spirit carries the essence of the person which can be returned to a body at the resurrection.
Either the dead still exist and sleep in death OR the dead do not sleep but go out of existence at the death of the body. The Watch Tower teaching is the 2nd.
Which on do you believe.
But maybe you think that the dead can both sleep and go out of existence. Is that what you believe?

 

[Brian2]

Yes, Revelation 20:6 is about the first or earlier resurrection. Revelation 20:4 is about Revelation 5:9-10.
Those of verse 4 are the ones of verse 6 who govern with Christ as kings and priests for a thousand years.
If No one was on Earth there would be No need for kings and priests governing over Earth, earthly subjects.
Heavenly Resurrection is for people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are considered as saints/holy ones.
The rest of resurrected mankind can inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
By the end of the thousand years all the people living at that time will have been restored to perfect human life.
Remember 1 Corinthians 15:26 because No one alive at that end time is affected by adamic sin (sin passed down to us from fallen father Adam) - Romans 5:12
'Enemy death' from the curse of Adam's sin is gone being completely removed under Christ's rule over Earth.
So, in that way those who choose to remain righteous ' come to life ' as ' now perfect humans ' as Adam and Eve originally were without sickness or death with the opportunity to live and Enjoy Life Forever on Earth.

That is all a bit complicated for me.
Where does it say that people get resurrected and have an opportunity to sin or not and so be judged for what they do after they are resurrected?

 

[Kenny]

Of course God is in heaven. God. Not people.

So if God is in Heaven and there are four and twenty elders at the throne, who are they?