Two countries on one land..

[Supergate]

The Land was won fair and square through Bartar & War. As it always is and always has been.
Such a worthless piece of dust; Be it as it may be, all belongs to No one and no people BUT Allah of the Ori!

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady, this is not actually true. Any country that chooses to bomb civilian targets is responsible for the deaths of innocent people.

Israel does not target civilians. When terrorists hide in civilian populations, civilian blood is on their hands.

Israel has a deliberate policy of using missiles--not just sniper rifles--to assassinate those who actually are dedicated to its destruction. Those assassination attacks are as cowardly as suicide bombers used to kill innocent Israelis.

Sniper rifles cannot do any real damage to weapons storage facilities or rocket launch sites. Missiles can. Using Schools as a place to fire rockets from... that's more than cowardly. That's evil. The terrorists know they're firing rockets from schools, and that any retaliation will be aimed at the launch site... which means that palestinian terrorists are responsible for the death of palestinian children.

When Palestinian children die, Israelis mourn.

When Israeli children die, Palestinians figure there are that many less occupier zionist pigs in the world.



August 9, 2001

15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 were injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria at the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in downtown Jerusalem. Concealing the explosives in a guitar case which he had carried with him into Jerusalem, the terrorist entered the restaurant just before 2 PM and detonated the bomb. The 5 kg.-10 kg. bomb, which was packed with nails, screws, and bolts to ensure maximum damage, completely gutted the restaurant, which was full of lunchtime diners.


Was this a legitimate strike? Was the Sbarros sort of Israeli military base? Were any Israeli terrorist organizations planning attacks on Palestinian civilian populations in that restaurant? Why didn't that guy walk in there with a sniper rifle?

 

[Copernicus]

Israel does not target civilians. When terrorists hide in civilian populations, civilian blood is on their hands.

I won't deny that. It is also on the hands of anyone who would kill innocent bystanders in order to kill the terrorists. It is shared blood. But you ignored my original example in order to try to obscure the point. An assassination of a political leader by a missile strike is not exactly "hot pursuit". It is a premeditated revenge killing that takes the lives of innocent bystanders.

Sniper rifles cannot do any real damage to weapons storage facilities or rocket launch sites. Missiles can. Using Schools as a place to fire rockets from... that's more than cowardly. That's evil. The terrorists know they're firing rockets from schools, and that any retaliation will be aimed at the launch site... which means that palestinian terrorists are responsible for the death of palestinian children.

I did not propose to use sniper rifles in missions where they would be ineffective. I was talking about the assassination of Hamas political leaders in their homes and neighborhoods. Like you, I recognize that innocents may be killed during "hot pursuit" or in order to shut down an immediate threat. I have nothing against taking out missile sites that pose a direct threat to other innocent people. That kind of thing is unavoidable. But it is inexcusable to harm innocent people when the action taken is purely retaliatory or vengeful.

When Palestinian children die, Israelis mourn.

I doubt that this is any comfort to the families of the victims. Would you feel consoled to learn that your family had been wiped out by terrorists, but they felt genuinely sorry that they did it?

When Israeli children die, Palestinians figure there are that many less occupier zionist pigs in the world.

This is a false generalization, and you know it. That some Palestinians might feel that way does not justify indiscriminate violence against Palestinians any more than murderous attitudes by some Israelis justifies indiscriminate killing of Israelis. You aren't going to get me to take sides in internecine warfare. Both sides merit blame.

Was this a legitimate strike? Was the Sbarros sort of Israeli military base? Were any Israeli terrorist organizations planning attacks on Palestinian civilian populations in that restaurant?

No to all of your questions.

Why didn't that guy walk in there with a sniper rifle?

Because that individual suicide bomber believed in the indiscrimnate killing of Israelis. That act does not justify indiscriminate retaliation against innocent Palestinians.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I won't deny that. It is also on the hands of anyone who would kill innocent bystanders in order to kill the terrorists. It is shared blood. But you ignored my original example in order to try to obscure the point. An assassination of a political leader by a missile strike is not exactly "hot pursuit". It is a premeditated revenge killing that takes the lives of innocent bystanders.

I did not propose to use sniper rifles in missions where they would be ineffective. I was talking about the assassination of Hamas political leaders in their homes and neighborhoods. Like you, I recognize that innocents may be killed during "hot pursuit" or in order to shut down an immediate threat. I have nothing against taking out missile sites that pose a direct threat to other innocent people. That kind of thing is unavoidable. But it is inexcusable to harm innocent people when the action taken is purely retaliatory or vengeful.

Any more usefulness to be had with this conversation could only come from someone who is formerly or presently a member of the IDF. I seriously doubt that Israelis just don't care... they do go out of their way to drop leaflets telling civilians to get the hell out of the way, with more than enough time before they drop bombs.

I know a guy who has been in the IDF for 30 years. I'll voice some of your concerns to him, then I'll get back to you.

Until then... war sucks. people die.

Do you feel the same way or worse about Hiroshima than you do about this situation?

 

[Copernicus]

Any more usefulness to be had with this conversation could only come from someone who is formerly or presently a member of the IDF. I seriously doubt that Israelis just don't care... they do go out of their way to drop leaflets telling civilians to get the hell out of the way, with more than enough time before they drop bombs.

I can imagine how you would appreciate getting a leaflet advising you to vacate your home before it is destroyed.

I know a guy who has been in the IDF for 30 years. I'll voice some of your concerns to him, then I'll get back to you.

Honestly, I don't expect the IDF to have a very objective or even-handed view of matters that concern a war that they are engaged in. People in the IDF are locked in a life-and-death struggle with Hamas forces. Vice versa for Hamas forces. I would expect the opinions of IDF enemies to be similarly "unbiased".

Until then... war sucks. people die.

The perennial excuse of those who feel that they can win a war.

Do you feel the same way or worse about Hiroshima than you do about this situation?

Yes. Worse, in fact.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Honestly, I don't expect the IDF to have a very objective or even-handed view of matters that concern a war that they are engaged in. People in the IDF are locked in a life-and-death struggle with Hamas forces. Vice versa for Hamas forces. I would expect the opinions of IDF enemies to be similarly "unbiased".

I was thinking more along the lines of reasons for doing things certain ways... like using missles instead of snipers... as opposed to opinions and reactions.

Yes. Worse, in fact.

At least you're consistent.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

Guys, I'm sorry, but we are getting off the topic now...I kinda hoped there would be more participation from muslim fellows...

 

[TashaN]

Guys, this is the Islam DIR and contrary views to Islamic values are not acceptable here. Pleaser refer to DIR rules in the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item

israel doesn't know the word "share"....muslims,christians and jews already shared the land for hundreds of years...the Israeli mentality is the same as the mentality of those who wiped islam out of andalusia....its never about sharing , but about "ERADICATION AND REPLACEMENT "....
from the nile to al Forat is their dream (and only god knows about the upper and lower borders !!)

I definitely agree with all of the above.

 

[Breathe]

Guys, I'm sorry, but we are getting off the topic now...I kinda hoped there would be more participation from muslim fellows...

I'm sorry about that. I did pay attention to the DIR section.

However, I was honestly asking a question with my previous post [not start a debate]; I'd like to know Muslims' views on such a concept?

 

[EiNsTeiN]

I'm sorry about that. I did pay attention to the DIR section.

However, I was honestly asking a question with my previous post [not start a debate]; I'd like to know Muslims' views on such a concept?

No problem

I hope you would find our views out through the discussion..

 

[Breathe]

I hope so.
For clarification, I'll provide it again. If that's ok. If not, I'll delete it, or TashaN can.

Personally, I think a confederacy of two nations - both semi-autonomous, and both governed with secular laws (similar Turkey's) on a national level, and possibly with some religious laws on a local level - but not inter-religious, so Muslims would not have Jewish laws, and Jews would not have Muslim laws governing them. I think may be best for Palestine and Israel.

What do you think?

 

[Delamere]

Why is this particular piece of land so important to Arabs? Is all this happening because a man who lived far away from Jerusalem is a said to have had a dream one night?

 

[Sahar]

Sharing land with what??!! I am serious!! With those who occupied the lands and killed our people and kicked them out of their homes?!! Their language is violence, killing and terrorism!! Does the word "share" have any meaning in their dictionary?!!
I don't mind "sharing" if from the beginning, the Jews came and lived between us peacefully but after the crimes they committed and after the occupation, what sharing we are talking about here!!

 

[Sahar]

Why is this particular piece of land so important to Arabs? Is all this happening because a man who lived far away from Jerusalem is a said to have had a dream one night?

A great suggestion; why don't you give the Zionists a part of your country and let them establish heir own state? I am sure you don't mind.

 

[Breathe]

not4me, you're showing a lot of problems. Do you have a solution?
And why have no Muslims responded, ever, to my suggestion?

And why do you guys seem to forget that it was the Arabs who disagreed to the 1967 Israel-Palestine partition? And you forget that Palestine was part of the land given to the British to rule after the destruction of the Osman Empire?

 

[kai]

not4me, you're showing a lot of problems. Do you have a solution?
And why have no Muslims responded, ever, to my suggestion?

And why do you guys seem to forget that it was the Arabs who disagreed to the 1967 Israel-Palestine partition? And you forget that Palestine was part of the land given to the British to rule after the destruction of the Osman Empire?

just one point Odion it wasnt given to the British to Rule, but to administer.the transition from one Ottoman area into nation states.

 

[.lava]

Sharing land with what??!! I am serious!! With those who occupied the lands and killed our people and kicked them out of their homes?!! Their language is violence, killing and terrorism!! Does the word "share" have any meaning in their dictionary?!!
I don't mind "sharing" if from the beginning, the Jews came and lived between us peacefully but after the crimes they committed and after the occupation, what sharing we are talking about here!!

not4me, authority in Israel is zionist and cruel. authority in USA is no any better. authority in Egypt is doing wrong about Gaza. authority in Saudi Arabia (imo) is doomed. i actually do not see any decent government at the moment. they are all corrupted. i do not think there would be sharing or peace after all, specially after this last terrible attack to Gaza. yet i find it hard to believe governments are representing their people. do you think Israeli government is representing each Israeli who lives in Israel? are you sure those who's running this government and making decisions for Israeli army are actually living in Israel?

.

 

[TashaN]

not4me, you're showing a lot of problems. Do you have a solution?
And why have no Muslims responded, ever, to my suggestion?

And why do you guys seem to forget that it was the Arabs who disagreed to the 1967 Israel-Palestine partition? And you forget that Palestine was part of the land given to the British to rule after the destruction of the Osman Empire?

The 1947 UN GA proposed partition was outside the competence of the Assembly under the Charter of the United Nations. Nowhere in the UN's charter was there the power to partition any country, especially based on racial or religious grounds. Even if the UN had the power, the resolution to partition Palestine was not binding since it was indorsed by the General Assembly rather than the Security Council.

Please read below for details:

Why did Arabs reject the proposed UN GA partition plan which split Palestine into Jewish and Arab states?

For more info. about this topic please read:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/middle-eastern-politics/70821-palestine-clearing-up-dust.html

 

[TashaN]

Personally, I think a confederacy of two nations - both semi-autonomous, and both governed with secular laws (similar Turkey's) on a national level, and possibly with some religious laws on a local level - but not inter-religious, so Muslims would not have Jewish laws, and Jews would not have Muslim laws governing them. I think may be best for Palestine and Israel.

What do you think?

Impossible! It would be different though if the Palestinians were as strong as Israel.

 

[Breathe]

Impossible! It would be different though if the Palestinians were as strong as Israel.

Why impossible?