Two Kinds of Salvation

[Ben Avraham]

So, you're saying Jesus isn't love? That God is not Spirit? That there's no mental image of love? I disagree. When you see a man shooting another, do you see that as an image of love or of hate? The spirit of the man was displayed by his actions. James talks about love with skin on it. Jesus lived his life that way. Yeah, we were created in God's spiritual image. We were designed to love each other just as God loves us. Love, just like hate and even indifference, are seen in our actions. Yeah, most of us don't understand that and are quite uncomfortable with that concept. That doesn't make it untrue. This generation equates love to a feeling. God equates love to action. Bold, unselfish and sacrificial action. Love is only a decision away.

Perhaps he WAS love; at least for his People aka the Jews; today he rests with those whom their loves, their hates, and their jealousies have long since perished; and they have no more share till the end of time in all that goes on under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6) HaShem is a Spirit, Jesus said so and I agree with him. Love is an incorporeal emanation and emanations do not exhibit images. Regarding the man shooting another, I see as an act of self defense if the man is not a criminal. So, you are implying that Jesus lived his life in an endless demonstration of love! How about when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers in that area before the Temple? If he was charismatic, couldn't he have solved that problem with a stern glance of his eye? And you say that it was an act of love. That's Christian preconceived notions. Since God's love is conditional, I hope you must agree that our love must also be conditional. Love is a feeling in humans, not in God though. Action is only the result of feeling love. Love is not only a decision away. We must feel love to act on it.

 

[Scuba Pete]

emanations do not exhibit images.

Again, I respectfully disagree as do the writers of both the old and New Testaments. It's referred to as the "Glory of the Lord" and it was revealed to the Israelites on Mount Sinai just as it's being revealed to us now through God's Spirit. This reminds me of one of the most beautiful passages in the NT and I'll quote it from the NIV.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV (the red highlight is from me for emphasis)

I would suggest that this transformation is not a physical one, but a spiritual one. I know that I don't look any better since God's Spirit has made his home within me, but I have more patience, more kindness, less envy, less pride (and so forth from 1 Corinthians 13). I've been growing in love for over 40 years now since I was first converted. My love has been transformed from one degree of glory to another as I have learned to simply trust God and let him work within me and through me. I love the freedom His Spirit affords me.

So, you are implying that Jesus lived his life in an endless demonstration of love!

I hope I did more than "imply". The whole point of Jesus' ministry was to introduce us to a life of love. It's the single hallmark we are to be known by.

John 13:34 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” NIV

Love is not an option for a Christian. You're not a Christian without love. That most Christians are known for their hate and intolerance is a condemnation of their understanding of Christianity and not Christianity itself.

How about when he armed himself with a whip and caused financial and physical damages to the money changers

I'm not sure. I'll have to ask him, the next time I see him. I believe it was his right and his duty to expose the evil of the money changers and yes, even the Pharisees. I don't recall of any injuries recorded in this passage. Maybe to their egos, but I'm OK with that. Did you ever notice that Jesus' harsh words, condemnations and actions were confined to religious leaders? I certainly believe he would have problems with most of our current religious leaders as well. The hate, intolerance and bigotry done in the name of Christianity is as disheartening as it isn't Christianity.

Since God's love is conditional,

I disagree with your premise. For God SO loved the world that he gave his Son. NIV. Doesn't sound like that was conditional to me.

John 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other. NIV (The red highlights are mine for emphasis)

Love is a feeling in humans

Not according to the NT.
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. NIV
Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV
Now, that's love with skin on it. Love is an action: not a feeling. Love compels you to act! If you don't understand that, then you don't understand Godly love. Need more proof? Romans 12:9 and 1 Corinthians 13 are great descriptions of Godly Love. Don't mistake eros with philos or even agape. Lust (eros) and infatuation (trella) are feelings. Filial affection (philos) is deep. Godly love (agape) is a commitment that entails sacrifice. You might be incapable of this but that doesn't mean everyone is as cavalier about love as you are. Love is a verb and is useless without ACTION!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Where is it written that it was a law to exclude the Gentiles

I don't know. Perhaps that's their interpretation of the law? I'm not Jewish, so I'm only under one law: the law of love.

Jesus could not have condemned his own colleagues the Pharisees.

I don't think they were his colleagues.

You are simply making a huge mistake to let us know that Jesus was a sinner just like any other for having broken the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text of Matthew 23:13-33.

Ah, you're making the mistake of equating anger with hate. Two different things here. Anger can lead to sin, but is not sin in and of itself. After all, the OT says God got mad all the time. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

And you are assuming bigotry in Matthew 23

That's a stretch. Rather than telling me what I 'assume', you would do better by asking me what I meant (or think). God is no respecter of persons. It's my opinion that Jesus had a plan to get around the bias and bigotry that was the norm back then and this was a part of it. He came as a Jew and became the savior for everyone. When people were shunning the infirm, he reached out and touched them. Yes, even those with leprosy. When people wanted to stone a sinner, he shamed them out of it. When his disciples wanted him to avoid the Samaritan woman at the well, he not only reached out to her, but loved her. No one I know would call that bigotry, but I get that you're grasping at straws at this point. I get the feeling that no matter how noble he acts, you're going to try to twist it into something awful. That's your loss: not His.

Matthew 11:16 “To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:

17 “‘We played the pipe for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not mourn.’
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” NIV

 

[Thief]

Two Kinds of Salvation.

1. Personal salvation and;

2. Universal salvation.

Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law.

Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noahide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.

Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24)

sorry I got here so late......

How about?......everyone survives the last breath
No spirit of anyone fades away
The dust is not the end of anyone

Now picture....Jesus, Judas and Hitler
sitting at a table....
sharing bread and a sauce bowl.....
looking each other....in the eye

 

[omega2xx]

Two Kinds of Salvation.

1. Personal salvation and;

2. Universal salvation.

Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law.

The Bible doe not teach universal salvation(Rev 20:15).

Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noahide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Gen 8:21-22 is not a promise to Israel, there was no Israel at that time. It is not about salvation. It is a promise to the world that God will not destroy the earth again by a flood. At the end of the age, He will destroy the world again by fire.

Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

How can the "casting off of all Israel," be a promise of universal salvation?

Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.

It does point to the One Jew who was without spot or blemish. No other Jew can meet that requirement, and that is the only one God will accept.

Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24)

That passage also is not about salvation. It is about asking for forgiveness when we have harmed another person. Without doing that, our sacrifice at the altar is meaningless and will not be accepted by God.

 

[omega2xx]

Where is it written that it was a law to exclude the Gentiles from a share in the gospel of salvation? Rather the opposite is true if you read Isaiah 42:6 that Israel was assigned as light unto the Gentiles. Jesus could not have condemned his own colleagues the Pharisees. You are simply making a huge mistake to let us know that Jesus was a sinner just like any other for having broken the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text of Matthew 23:13-33. And you are assuming bigotry in Matthew 23. Jesus gave that command to his disciples because he seemed to have a personal grudge to Gentiles, especially Samaritans. I wonder why but it is written in your own NT. What is said about the good Samaritan and the woman at the well was nothing more than a parable. Literally, the case never happened.

Israel is not the light to the Gentiles, The Light of the world is our Light.

Jesus did condemn the Pharisees---You are of your father the devil---Jn 8:44. That does not mean they could not repent and be saved.

 

[omega2xx]

Yes, your Logic would prove rightif you could provide me with someone who died twice. So, I am all ears!

Lazarus and all those in both testaments who were resurrected.

 

[omega2xx]

Spiritually, water cannot wash away the sins of no one. Only repentance, restoration and return to the obedience of God's Law can save one of his or her sins. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Only confession can take away our sins(I Jn 1:9)

 

[Thief]

Only confession can take away our sins(I Jn 1:9)

I don't believe that.....
and to whom do you confess?

When I was soooooo much younger, I attended catholic schools
Almost became a priest for cause of all that exposure
especially in that all boy catholic high school

it would not have worked out

and your above post is one of those notions I have let go of

God and heaven will have full view of what we are....right after our last breath
so to the devil

Heaven gets first call......

going about in this life thinking it's all gone because you whispered in someone's ear......
all is right?.....no pending judgement call?

 

[savagewind]

I don't believe that.....
and to whom do you confess?

When I was soooooo much younger, I attended catholic schools
Almost became a priest for cause of all that exposure
especially in that all boy catholic high school

it would not have worked out

and your above post is one of those notions I have let go of

God and heaven will have full view of what we are....right after our last breath
so to the devil

Heaven gets first call......

going about in this life thinking it's all gone because you whispered in someone's ear......
all is right?.....no pending judgement call?

I think he means to confess one's sins to God.

 

[Thief]

I think he means to confess one's sins to God.

ok...but God and heaven already know

the forgiving part kicks in when your remission kicks in

 

[savagewind]

ok...but God and heaven already know

the forgiving part kicks in when your remission kicks in

I hear you saying that a person need not know he sinned. I disagree with that.
To confess means to be aware of the wrong a person might have done.

Isn't what is wrong with this world that people can't tell the difference between right and wrong or they do not care about the difference? To confess means to learn not to do wrong.

 

[Thief]

I hear you saying that a person need not know he sinned. I disagree with that.
To confess means to be aware of the wrong a person might have done.

Isn't what is wrong with this world that people can't tell the difference between right and wrong or they do not care about the difference? To confess means to learn not to do wrong.

no..no
confession DOES show understanding

remission (sin no more) is commitment

too many use the ritual as if washing
I don't think it works that way

if you wise up and know better
Heaven will see it
and doing better....
Heaven sees that too

 

[omega2xx]

I don't believe that.....
and to whom do you confess?

I Jn 1:9 says if we confess our sins, He(God ) will forgiven them. Do you have any verses that say confession is not the only way?

When I was soooooo much younger, I attended catholic schools
Almost became a priest for cause of all that exposure
especially in that all boy catholic high school

it would not have worked out

and your above post is one of those notions I have let go of

That's fine, but to let go of what the Bible says, you need to have scripture that supports your belief.

God and heaven will have full view of what we are....right after our last breath
so to the devil

Heaven gets first call......

going about in this life thinking it's all gone because you whispered in someone's ear......
all is right?.....no pending judgement call?

That is not what the Bible teaches. Do you have any Scripture to support what you believe.

 

[Thief]

it's not a matter of quote....
for your objection...you should try to support it

like something written that indicates....God and heaven are not aware

I on the other hand could quote....
.....and what is Man? that God is mindful of him....

(you should know the verse)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Only confession can take away our sins(I Jn 1:9)

Confession will mean nothing if you don't repent, make restoration and return to obedience.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Israel is not the light to the Gentiles, The Light of the world is our Light.

Jesus did condemn the Pharisees---You are of your father the devil---Jn 8:44. That does not mean they could not repent and be saved.

You contradicting Prophet Isaiah who said Israel was assigned as light unto the Gentiles and Jesus who said the Jews were the light of the world. (Israel 42:6 and Mat. 5:14)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Lazarus and all those in both testaments who were resurrected.

Lazarus was a parable because the NT does not have the power to contradict the Word of God in the Tanach. To die a second time implies resurrection and the whole gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach says that, once dead, no one will ever return. (II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7:9; etc.)

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Bible doe not teach universal salvation(Rev 20:15).

Prophet Jeremiah acknowledge universal salvation connected with Israel (Jeremiah 31:35-37) and Jesus did the same when he acknowledged that Salvation comes from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Gen 8:21-22 is not a promise to Israel, there was no Israel at that time. It is not about salvation. It is a promise to the world that God will not destroy the earth again by a flood. At the end of the age, He will destroy the world again by fire.

Israel was the token-to-be as a guarantee that general catastrophe would never happen again if you reread the quotes above.

How can the "casting off of all Israel," be a promise of universal salvation?

No all Israel was cast away forever if you read Psalms 78:67-70) Judah remained as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever if
you read I Kings 11:36)

It does point to the One Jew who was without spot or blemish. No other Jew can meet that requirement, and that is the only one God will accept.

Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only in Mat. 23:13-33. Hence, he was no paragon of righteousness.

That passage also is not about salvation. It is about asking for forgiveness when we have harmed another person. Without doing that, our sacrifice at the altar is meaningless and will not be accepted by God.

Did Jesus ask for forgiveness after he cursed the Pharisees 15 times in Mat. 23:13-33? No, so he was a sinner just as you and I are.

 

[omega2xx]

Confession will mean nothing if you don't repent, make restoration and return to obedience.

The verse(I Jn 1:9) only mentions confession. That is all that is necessary. Of course the confession has to be sincere.