Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[Inquire of God]

Only two? No, actually more but I will deal with just two of them here.

1. Why are there 3 forms of eternal destination specifically stated in the Bible? They are 1. eternal damnation 2. eternal annihilation 3. universal salvation.

For No 1: 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment"

For No 2: For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish; Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna

For No 3: For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people; the living God, who is the Savior of all people

2. Why are there 7 forms of atonement?

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
#2 The Ransom Theory
#3 Christus Victor
#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
#6 The Governmental Theory
#7 The Scapegoat Theory

Does God really need 7 forms of atonement to save people? And which form of salvation will God use?

That is really interesting.
For me there is only 1. Eternal Life or 2. Everlasting Life or 3. Hell.
Also, for me, there is only one kind of atonement and that is where we repent and the Lord absorbs most of the punishment factor by what He already did and we become eligible for eternal life, if we do not repent then a person is only eligible for the universal parts of the atonement like immortality-everlasting life and eventual resurrection and forgiveness after paying the price for our own individual sins which will be a very awful experience. And, apparently there are some sins that might never be able to be paid in full by the guilty person.
For me eternal life is becoming like God, eventually.
Everlasting life is immortality or after resurrection a person lives forever at whatever level their judgment places them.
Hell is punishment from God that is either eternal to the person who receives it or as punishment that can be meted out by God at any time in the eternities.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

That is really interesting.
For me there is only 1. Eternal Life or 2. Everlasting Life or 3. Hell.
Also, for me, there is only one kind of atonement and that is where we repent and the Lord absorbs most of the punishment factor by what He already did and we become eligible for eternal life, if we do not repent then a person is only eligible for the universal parts of the atonement like immortality-everlasting life and eventual resurrection and forgiveness after paying the price for our own individual sins which will be a very awful experience. And, apparently there are some sins that might never be able to be paid in full by the guilty person.
For me eternal life is becoming like God, eventually.
Everlasting life is immortality or after resurrection a person lives forever at whatever level their judgment places them.
Hell is punishment from God that is either eternal to the person who receives it or as punishment that can be meted out by God at any time in the eternities.

Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot simpler if God just told us after we die, "You're forgiven" and left it at that? Why all the technical mumbo-jumbo? If we do not, if we do, if some might not, some might etc

 

[Inquire of God]

Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot simpler if God just told us after we die, "You're forgiven" and left it at that? Why all the technical mumbo-jumbo? If we do not, if we do, if some might not, some might etc

I suppose a simplistic God would be attractive to some and I mean that in a nice way.
I just take God at what he has said -as I perceive it- and I don't try to interject my own demands or philosophy.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I suppose a simplistic God would be attractive to some and I mean that in a nice way.
I just take God at what he has said -as I perceive it- and I don't try to interject my own demands or philosophy.

It's okay to do that, but the Bible's equivalent is like a Rube Goldberg mousetrap without about 10,000 different laws that only adept theologians can string together in some coherent way. I know the simplistic response is, "Just believe in Jesus, period" but I never get any realistic or meaningful reasons why I should. I followed him for 60 years and I didn't get any benefits out of the deal. In the end with absolutely no evidence for Jesus I finally came to the conclusion as do millions of others every year that I was just wasting my time. I've been much happier ever since I dropped Jesus 10 years ago. I admit questions do pop into my mind from time to time, that's why I come to this board, but all in all the decision has been a blessing.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Good night. How are the Jews going to accept jesus' sacrifice if theirs is commanded by God to last forever? Opposites.

But are they still making animal sacrifices? No. The place for those sacrifices, the Temple, no longer exists. Their sacrifices ceased. (Those sacrifices actually pointed to & were fulfilled in Jesus’ sacrifice.)

With all due respect, who is the judge of actions / behavior?

Matthew 7:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

How does this apply?
You accept everyone as your close friends? I doubt it. So, you judge too.
I’m sure that you prefer to be around people that are loving. And avoid those who are hateful.

Am I wrong?

It’s not hard to see a difference.

 

[Trailblazer]

How does this apply?
You accept everyone as your close friends? I doubt it. So, you judge too.

I try not to judge anyone in the sense that Jesus said not to judge -- beholding the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but not considering the beam that is in my own eye -- and I do not have to do that in order to not have them as close friends.

Baha'u'llah wrote something very similar to what Jesus said:

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

But are they still making animal sacrifices? No. The place for those sacrifices, the Temple, no longer exists. Their sacrifices ceased. (Those sacrifices actually pointed to & were fulfilled in Jesus’ sacrifice.)

I'll answer your other points later. Right now, I still wonder: Yahweh said in leviticus 16:34:

"And this shall be a statute >>forever<< for you.

It doesn't say "temporarily until I institute a permanent sacrifice through my son who will die for the sins of mankind" no, it says "FOREVER". That's God saying that. The animal sacrifice will last forever. Do you deny that God used the word "FOREVER" in that verse. Are you saying that when God says "FOREVER" what He really mean is only temporarily????????

 

[Brian2]

Well, one question that immediately popped into my mind (bold above): what were these names that the gospels went by prior to Irenaeus?

The names are not written in the Gospels but the authorship was known and I have heard that the scrolls had names on them.
There is some information in this site I linked about the knowledge of who the authors were.
Four Gospels: What, Why, and When?

 

[Brian2]

Baha’is believe that there is an everlasting covenant which remains in force today. It will never be replaced.

Jesus covenant that He made is called eternal also. That won't be replaced.

 

[Brian2]

I'll answer your other points later. Right now, I still wonder: Yahweh said in leviticus 16:34:

"And this shall be a statute >>forever<< for you.

It doesn't say "temporarily until I institute a permanent sacrifice through my son who will die for the sins of mankind" no, it says "FOREVER". That's God saying that. The animal sacrifice will last forever. Do you deny that God used the word "FOREVER" in that verse. Are you saying that when God says "FOREVER" what He really mean is only temporarily????????

The English translations aren't always 100% accurate. The word can mean for an indefinite amount of time or of long duration.
The Law was for the Mosaic Covenant and in the New Covenant there is a new law. The Mosaic Law foreshadowed Jesus and what He would do in the New Covenant.

 

[Brian2]

23 In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him."

The only ones who loved Jesus and who were to "dwell" with him are the ones he promised a place for in heaven....those identified as future "kings and priests" who will rule with Christ in the spirit realm. (Revelation 20:6) If all Christians go to heaven, we will have all Chiefs and no Indians....

John 14:23 says that Jesus and the Father will come and make their dwelling with the man who loves Jesus and observes His word. It says "anyone". It does not say only a limited number.
Why do you alter the meaning of the text with your doctrine and make it mean something it does not say.
Also it does not say anything about anyone going to heaven, it says that the Father and the Son will come to people and dwell with them.
When do you think this is going to happen?
It could happen when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven with the Lamb and God in it, to earth to be with the disciples, but John 14 is about not leaving the disciples as orphans and that Jesus would come to them, which sounds like Jesus was coming to be with them in this life just as Moses got God to say that He would be with them in the wilderness and it was the Holy Spirit who came with them and the rock who was Christ.
Since the passage is speaking about the coming of the Holy Spirit to the disciples/anyone who loves Jesus and observes what He said, and since the Holy Spirit is the Lord, (2Cor 3:17) I would say that Jesus is saying that the Father and Son will come in the Holy Spirit.

Those who go to heaven are numbered, whereas those who form their earthly subjects (attributing their salvation to God and the Lamb) are not. (Revelation 7:4, 9-10, 13-14) Revelation 14:1-5 tells us that those 144,000 are "bought from the earth are firstfruits to God and to the Lamb". Why are they "first"...and who comes after?

And...who do they rule over? And for whom do they act as priests? There are no sinners in heaven and those who are "kings" do not rule over each other. The "great crowd" are "saved".

Revelation 21:2-4 is a view of the future and it has mankind benefiting from the rulership of Christ and his bride. Death and suffering will never be endured again....."the former things have passed away".

Human life will go back to the way it was meant to be at the beginning, because God always finishes what he starts (Isaiah 55:11)

This is an interesting theory but once it is used to alter the meaning of various places in the Bible and read into those passages, things that aren't there, then it is time to realise that it is only a theory and is as wrong as the multiple dates that the Watchtower has set for various thing to happen which have not happened.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

The English translations aren't always 100% accurate. The word can mean for an indefinite amount of time or of long duration.
The Law was for the Mosaic Covenant and in the New Covenant there is a new law. The Mosaic Law foreshadowed Jesus and what He would do in the New Covenant.

It's pretty clear to anyone who reads it and puts on his thinking cap instead of drinking the Kool-Aid, that the writers of the verse thought the animal sacrifice would go on forever. They had no foresight of anything, certainly not them being conquered by the Romans and their temple being destroyed and especially a Jesus coming along and being turned into a permanent sacrifice.

 

[Inquire of God]

It's okay to do that, but the Bible's equivalent is like a Rube Goldberg mousetrap without about 10,000 different laws that only adept theologians can string together in some coherent way. I know the simplistic response is, "Just believe in Jesus, period" but I never get any realistic or meaningful reasons why I should. I followed him for 60 years and I didn't get any benefits out of the deal. In the end with absolutely no evidence for Jesus I finally came to the conclusion as do millions of others every year that I was just wasting my time. I've been much happier ever since I dropped Jesus 10 years ago. I admit questions do pop into my mind from time to time, that's why I come to this board, but all in all the decision has been a blessing.

I am not sure why you are telling me this.
The Lord has taken the sting out of an extremely sad life from my heart and given me joy so that I no longer want to kill myself or do drugs or hurt others.
Nothing else and no one else could help me like He is.
I will never leave Him, He is all I have and all I will ever worship.
He is not simplistic, His doctrines are easy to initially understand, but the more I study them the more I learn about every known topic.
It is your choice to do what you have done, but it seems like you are following some current of non-believers and are glad to do so. That does not appeal to me.
I am grateful for what He has done for me and no one and no group can take that away from me.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I am not sure why you are telling me this.
The Lord has taken the sting out of an extremely sad life from my heart and given me joy so that I no longer want to kill myself or do drugs or hurt others.
Nothing else and no one else could help me like He is.
I will never leave Him, He is all I have and all I will ever worship.
He is not simplistic, His doctrines are easy to initially understand, but the more I study them the more I learn about every known topic.
It is your choice to do what you have done, but it seems like you are following some current of non-believers and are glad to do so. That does not appeal to me.
I am grateful for what He has done for me and no one and no group can take that away from me.

Nobody want to take it away from you if you're truly happy with it. I always say, "Life is extremely tough and ugly. Use whatever you have to to help you get through it. I don't care if it's sex, drugs, rock & roll, video games...or even Jesus. Use whatever makes the journey to oblivion easier."

 

[TrueBeliever37]

What do my feelings about God have to do with whether or not my religion is true? The two are unrelated. Other Baha'is do not feel the way I do, so it is my own personal problem that I struggle with. You cannot even imagine how much I have suffered in my life, only God knows. Most people who have suffered this much would have committed suicide long ago. So why do you think a loving God would allow so much suffering for some people while other people hardly suffer at all?

I hope you realize that I cannot hurt God by disliking Him, I only hurt myself. God cannot be hurt by humans but God could be sad for me that I feel this way. But if God is sad for me and loving, why doesn't He lift my burdens? This has nothing to do with what religion I belong to because other Baha'is do not suffer like I do. I am not saying that no Baha'is suffer but the ones I know do not suffer like I do.

Most Baha'is tell me I should be grateful for my suffering because it helps me grow spiritually and I will be stronger and more spiritual when I die so I will be much better off in the long run, but that is easy for them to say since they do not walk in my shoes.

It is not as if I do not cry out for help, and when I do I cry out to Jesus and God. I was not raised as a Christian or believing in God and I never read one page of the Bible until about eight years ago, but because of what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha wrote about Jesus, and because of what is in the Gospels I have a heartfelt connection to Jesus. It is always Christian music I listen to for hope, and below is my favorite song which I truly believe. God is our only hope.

A persons feelings do matter. How could you shine any kind of a light to someone when you hate your God?

You're just mistaken if you think you can tell God and others that you hate him and how horrible he is and then expect a lot of help.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

No, of course the Baha'i teachings are not found in the Bible because we have our own scriptures.

I do not have a doctrine because the Baha'i Faith does not have doctrines. We have the original Writings of Baha'u'llah to refer to as well as interpretations that were made by His appointed interpreters, so we need no doctrines. Moreover, we have no clergy so each individual is responsible to come to an understanding of the Writings by themselves.

The Church has doctrines because Christians could never agree on what the Bible meant, so they wrote up doctrines, but the doctrines of the Church are not even based upon what Jesus said in the Gospels. From early on the Church as used those doctrines to frighten and control people.

My God is a loving kind God. Doctrine is just whatever you believe and teach. So you do have a doctrine.

The doctrines of the true churches of God will be based on his word. God will allow those who receive not the love of the truth to believe a lie and be damned.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus covenant that He made is called eternal also. That won't be replaced.

Baha'is do not believe that the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is eternal, as it will be replaced when the next Messenger of God comes... We believe that the everlasting covenant is the Mosaic Covenant that God made with the Israelites which remains in force today. It will never be replaced.

The everlasting covenant is like the umbrella which covers all religions. It began with Moses and it will last forever.

In addition to that covenant, the Messengers of God make a Covenant with their followers. This is called the Greater Covenant.

Jesus made a Covenant with His followers, which applies only to Christians.
Baha'u'llah also made a Covenant with His followers, which applies only to Baha'is.

 

[Trailblazer]

A persons feelings do matter. How could you shine any kind of a light to someone when you hate your God?

I am not trying to shine any light to someone. I do not hate God most of the time and I serve God regardless of how I feel.
In that sense feelings don't matter. They only hurt me.

You're just mistaken if you think you can tell God and others that you hate him and how horrible he is and then expect a lot of help.

If God is that petty then I don't want His help, but I do not think God is that petty.
I do get a lot of help from others and most of them are atheists because they have true compassion.
Sadly, I see few believers who have any compassion. It is because of their beliefs that they have no compassion. They believe God is going to rescue me, so they do not need to even try to help.

 

[Trailblazer]

My God is a loving kind God. Doctrine is just whatever you believe and teach. So you do have a doctrine.

By definition a doctrine is a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group, so I do not have a doctrine of my own.

You are free to believe whatever you want to about God, as that is what the Church teaches.
Baha'is also believe God is loving, but I just do not see any evidence of that and I cannot believe that for which there is no evidence. That it says God is loving in scriptures is not good enough for me.

But it does not matter to me if God is loving because I do not need God's love and that is certainly not why I am a believer, to get something for myself.

The doctrines of the true churches of God will be based on his word. God will allow those who receive not the love of the truth to believe a lie and be damned.

God will allow people to believe whatever they want to believe because God allows free will, but God will judge people according to their capacity and by His mercy and compassion.

Regarding tests and suffering, my best friend who is a Baha'i sent me this in my e-mail today.

Bahá’u’lláh urges the people of the Bayán to do likewise, counselling them to adorn their beings with the mantle of resignation, to be steadfast in the Cause of God, and never to be dismayed or disheartened by adversity. And He reminds them that, whereas God rewards every good deed in accordance with its merit, in the case of patience and long-suffering, as attested in the Qur’án, the recompense is limitless.[^1] [1]: 'Those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure.' (Qur’án xxxix. 10.Translated by ‘Abdu’lláh Yusuf ‘Alí.)

Adib Taherzadeh, "The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh vol. 1

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I am not trying to shine any light to someone. I do not hate God most of the time and I serve God regardless of how I feel. In that sense feelings don't matter. They only hurt me.

If God is that petty then I don't want His help, but I do not think God is that petty.
I do get a lot of help from others and most of them are atheists because they have true compassion.
Sadly, I see few believers who have any compassion. It is because of their beliefs that they have no compassion. They believe God is going to rescue them, fat chance.

Even if you only hate God part of the time as you say - How would your words not be hurting others, if it causes them to hate God and/or speak evil against him?

Of course atheists will hug up to you when you spew hatred about God? They love it when you do that.