U. S. sanctions settlers

[Debater Slayer]

We gave Gazans almost 20 years and they failed to be civilized.

This kind of statement has blatant echoes of a "White Man's Burden" type of mindset, except that it is also accompanied by extreme tribalism that either fails to see the problem with kicking people out of land on which they have lived for many generations or sees but simply overlooks said problem.

There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. That you felt it appropriate to sweepingly condemn them as "uncivilized" speaks volumes about how you're approaching this topic.

You're not the arbiter of who is or isn't "civilized," and many of your own views would be considered "uncivilized" by many other people's standards, even within your own country. It seems to me that it is wiser not to be so quick to make condemnatory overgeneralizations about others.

 

[Bthoth]

We gave Gazans almost 20 years and they failed to be civilized.

all 2.5 million?

Including the families removed from jerusalem?

Evidence?

 

[Bthoth]

When did that happen?

in 1947.

 

[icehorse]

This kind of statement has blatant echoes of a "White Man's Burden" type of mindset, except that it is also accompanied by extreme tribalism that either fails to see the problem with kicking people out of land on which they have lived for many generations or sees but simply overlooks said problem.

There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. That you felt it appropriate to sweepingly condemn them as "uncivilized" speaks volumes about how you're approaching this topic.

You're not the arbiter of who is or isn't "civilized," and many of your own views would be considered "uncivilized" by many other people's standards, even within your own country. It seems to me that it is wiser not to be so quick to make condemnatory overgeneralizations about others.

They allow their kids to be used as bombs. They allow their schools and hospitals to be used as cover for terrorism. They allowed tens of millions of dollars of aid to be diverted to building tunnels and rockets.

You might say "they had no choice, Hamas was in total control". So none of them could have gone to the UN for support?

 

[Bthoth]

They allow their kids to be used as bombs. They allow their schools and hospitals to be used as cover for terrorism. They allowed tens of millions of dollars of aid to be diverted to building tunnels and rockets.

Direct from media and israeli narratives.

You might say "they had no choice, Hamas was in total control". So none of them could have gone to the UN for support?

do you work for burger king?

 

[Revoltingest]

This kind of statement has blatant echoes of a "White Man's Burden" type of mindset, except that it is also accompanied by extreme tribalism that either fails to see the problem with kicking people out of land on which they have lived for many generations or sees but simply overlooks said problem.

There are 2.2 million people in Gaza. That you felt it appropriate to sweepingly condemn them as "uncivilized" speaks volumes about how you're approaching this topic.

You're not the arbiter of who is or isn't "civilized," and many of your own views would be considered "uncivilized" by many other people's standards, even within your own country. It seems to me that it is wiser not to be so quick to make condemnatory overgeneralizations about others.

We should note that Palestinians in Gaza had economic
woes imposed upon them by Israel, whose formal policy
it has been to keep them on the verge of financial collapse
long before the 10.7.23 Hamas attack.

Israel’s Practices against Palestinian Economy Exacerbating Dire Living Conditions in Occupied Territory, Syrian Golan, Senior Official Tells Second Committee | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

The Sustainable Development Goals will be meaningless if people in the occupied Palestinian territories and the Syrian Golan are left behind, delegates warned the Second Committee (Economic and Financial) today as it took up the issue of those lands.

press.un.org

UN agency: Israel's Gaza blockade has devastated economy

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has cost the seaside territory as much as $16.7 billion in economic losses and sent poverty and unemployment skyrocketing, a U.N. report said Wednesday, as it called on Israel to lift the closure.

apnews.com

A compelling & accurate prediction in the NYT (2018)....

UN agency: Israel's Gaza blockade has devastated economy

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel’s blockade of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has cost the seaside territory as much as $16.7 billion in economic losses and sent poverty and unemployment skyrocketing, a U.N. report said Wednesday, as it called on Israel to lift the closure.

apnews.com

With Gaza in Financial Crisis, Fears That ‘an Explosion’s Coming’​

 

[Debater Slayer]

They allow their kids to be used as bombs. They allow their schools and hospitals to be used as cover for terrorism. They allowed tens of millions of dollars of aid to be diverted to building tunnels and rockets.

More overgeneralizing condemnation. This is reminiscent of the jingoistic rhetoric that followed 9/11.

You can easily inform yourself about whether unarmed civilians had any choice in "allowing" an armed and Iran-backed militant organization to have control over Gaza, but you chose to demonize and generalize instead. This doesn't surprise me given the mentality underlying such statements, but it still needs to be called out for what it is.

You might say "they had no choice, Hamas was in total control". So none of them could have gone to the UN for support?

It is certainly easy to theorize about such things from a distance and talk about "[going] to the UN" as if it would be a surefire way to obtain safety, but the reality is that the UN wouldn't be able to do much, if anything, about the military issues without a significant and coordinated international effort.

Nevertheless, I posted not to engage with this kind of dehumanizing and irresponsible rhetoric but to challenge and call out the striking similarity between the post I initially responded to and the supremacist notion of "civilizing" other people à la the "White Man's Burden." Sometimes the best way to understand certain rhetoric in the present really is to read about the past.

 

[icehorse]

More overgeneralizing condemnation. This is reminiscent of the jingoistic rhetoric that followed 9/11.

You can easily inform yourself about whether unarmed civilians had any choice in "allowing" an armed and Iran-backed militant organization to have control over Gaza, but you chose to demonize and generalize instead. This doesn't surprise me given the mentality underlying such statements, but it still needs to be called out for what it is.



It is certainly easy to theorize about such things from a distance and talk about "[going] to the UN" as if it would be a surefire way to obtain safety, but the reality is that the UN wouldn't be able to do much, if anything, about the military issues without a significant and coordinated international effort.

Nevertheless, I posted not to engage with this kind of dehumanizing and irresponsible rhetoric but to challenge and call out the striking similarity between the post I initially responded to and the supremacist notion of "civilizing" other people à la the "White Man's Burden." Sometimes the best way to understand certain rhetoric in the present really is to read about the past.

What Hamas has been doing for the last almost 20 years comes as no surprise to anyone.

Where were the Gazans protesting these acts? Where was the UN condemning them? Where were the woke protesting Hamas.

Of course some Gazans are innocent, but overall, their silence and the world's silence against Hamas has been deafening. The truth is, many Gazans supported and still support Hamas. They are far from squeaky clean.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nevertheless, I posted not to engage with this kind of dehumanizing and irresponsible rhetoric but to challenge and call out the striking similarity between the post I initially responded to and the supremacist notion of "civilizing" other people à la the "White Man's Burden." Sometimes the best way to understand certain rhetoric in the present really is to read about the past.

Rather than the White Man's Burden (which is colonial control),
Israel appears to have switched to Manifest Destiny.
A step in a worse direction, eh.

Ref....

The White Man's Burden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Manifest destiny - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[icehorse]

We should note that Palestinians in Gaza had economic
woes imposed upon them by Israel, whose formal policy
it has been to keep them on the verge of financial collapse
long before the 10.7.23 Hamas attack.

You must think Israelis are idiots?

Imagine how different things would have been if starting 20 years ago, Gazans used their tens of millions of aid dollars to build a wonderful infrastructure and an open and free society. Do you imagine Israel would not have noticed?

 

[Revoltingest]

You must think Israelis are idiots?

If you mean idiocy as low intelligence, no.
If you mean idiocy as failing to use reason,
& failing to learn from history, resulting in
bad & immoral decisions, yes.

Their problems are a combination of...
- Persecution / victim complex.
- Paranoia.
- Religious entitlement to the Palestinian land.
- Jewish supremacy, nationalism, & dominionism.
- Religious basis for hostility to, & devaluing of Muslim lives.
- Deep emotional investment in their weltanschauung.
- Parochial empathy.
- Systematic suppression of opposition to oppressive policies.
- Enabled Christian & Jewish combined control of US government.
- I might think of more.

Imagine how different things would have been if starting 20 years ago, Gazans used their tens of millions of aid dollars to build a wonderful infrastructure and an open and free society.

Given Israel's formal policies to keep Palestinians
in a continual state of financial destitution, your
hypothetical doesn't apply.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What Hamas has been doing for the last almost 20 years comes as no surprise to anyone.

Where were the Gazans protesting these acts? Where was the UN condemning them? Where were the woke protesting Hamas.

More distant theorizing: when an unarmed population is ruled by a militant organization and crammed into an open-air prison by a far more militarily, economically, and politically powerful state, apparently trying to organize a protest and risking one's life—quite possibly without even managing to organize a large protest due to the repression—will somehow fix things.

And of course, we have a cameo appearance from another bugbear, the "woke."

Of course some Gazans are innocent, but overall, their silence and the world's silence against Hamas has been deafening. The truth is, many Gazans supported and still support Hamas. They are far from squeaky clean.

And many Americans supported and still support George W. Bush, many Israelis supported and still support Netanyahu, many Russians supported and still support Putin, and...

Any population has a subset of one size or another that supports hawkish or corrupt leaders, yet you seem to be trying to imply that the presence of such a subset among Gazans makes the population as a whole not innocent and, of course, therefore more acceptable to bomb or displace. Even if some people supported or voted for a bellicose leader like Bush or Netanyahu, that wouldn't justify bombing those people. A line has to be drawn between a combatant and a noncombatant if one wishes to set themselves apart from terror apologists who view civilians as legitimate military targets merely based on the civilians' beliefs.

The logic you seem to be employing—that is, implicating noncombatants as "not innocent" in a militarily fraught context based on their perceived or actual beliefs or voting decisions—is the exact same logic that many people have used to try to justify 9/11 and the 2005 London bombings. It is a Pandora's box of terror apologetics and violent hatred that I believe should be closed and thrown in the dustbin of history.

Aside from all of this, though, the thread is about settlers in the West Bank, not Gazans. You brought up Gazans in the thread to demonize them as "uncivilized," but the thread topic is not even about them.

Feel free to have the last word. I have no interest in engaging the rhetoric you're posting any further.

 

[icehorse]

Given Israel's formal policies to keep Palestinians
in a continual state of financial destitution, your
hypothetical doesn't apply.

You act as though Israel's policies were created and existed in a vacuum, as if the actions of Gazans could have had no impact on the situation? Seems pretty condescending.

 

[Revoltingest]

You act as though Israel's policies were created and existed in a vacuum, as if the actions of Gazans could have had no impact on the situation?

You ignore the previous 70+ years of history,
ie, Israel killing, thieving, & oppression.
Israel has been trying to keep the peace by
using oppression & violence. This has the
inevitable consequence of violent resistance.

Your reasoning is analogous to Putin blaming
Ukraine for the death of Russian soldiers.
Attacking in the pursuit of peace isn't working.

But you're ignoring your own claim about
Palestinians being solely responsible for their
own economic failure. Your posts betray the
inability to cannot see any fault with Israel.

 

[icehorse]

Any population has a subset of one size or another that supports hawkish or corrupt leaders, yet you seem to be trying to imply that the presence of such a subset among Gazans makes the population as a whole not innocent and, of course, therefore more acceptable to bomb or displace. Even if some people supported or voted for a bellicose leader like Bush or Netanyahu, that wouldn't justify bombing those people.

I have not opined on bombing, and your guesses as to what I think about bombing are wrong.

The logic you seem to be employing—that is, implicating noncombatants as "not innocent" in a militarily fraught context based on their perceived or actual beliefs or voting decisions—is the exact same logic that many people have used to try to justify 9/11 and the 2005 London bombings. It is a Pandora's box of terror apologetics and violent hatred that I believe should be closed and thrown in the dustbin of history.

Aside from all of this, though, the thread is about settlers in the West Bank, not Gazans. You brought up Gazans in the thread to demonize them as "uncivilized," but the thread topic is not even about them.

There are many similarities between the Palestinians in the WB and in Gaza. I'm opposed to terrorism and I'm opposed to war. But you seem to think that somehow - despite decades of evidence to the contrary - Palestinians can somehow live in peace next to Israel. This is a dangerous fantasy.

Until Palestinians openly put Islamic fundamentalism in the dustbin, there will be no peace in the region.

 

[icehorse]

You ignore the previous 70+ years of history,
ie, Israel killing, thieving, & oppression.
Israel has been trying to keep the peace by
using oppression & violence. This has the
inevitable consequence of violent resistance.

I don't have time to waste reading you lamely attempt to rewrite history. As I just said in my prior post, until Palestinians openly abandon Islamic fundamentalism, there can be no peace in the region.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't have time to waste reading you lamely attempt to rewrite history.

You read & respond.
Then you complain that you read & respond.
Not a good sign.

As I just said in my prior post, until Palestinians openly abandon Islamic fundamentalism, there can be no peace in the region.

Israel could abandon the Jewish version of Manifest Destiny too.
This would actually be the more practical solution, given that
Israel is the overwhelming military & political power in this
conflict. And they're doing far & away the most killing, maiming,
& stealing. The first step should be easy....stop openly planning
to deport Palestinians to Africa.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

in 1947.

Nonsense -- I have plants with more knowledge about 1947.

 

[icehorse]

You read & respond.
Then you complain that you read & respond.
Not a good sign.

Israel could abandon the Jewish version of Manifest Destiny too.
This would actually be the more practical solution, given that
Israel is the overwhelming military & political power in this
conflict. And they're doing far & away the most killing, maiming,
& stealing. The first step should be easy....stop openly planning
to deport Palestinians to Africa.

nope. as long as Islamic fundamentalism is in play, there is nothing Israel can do to establish peace. nothing.

Why are you defending Islamic fundamentalism? You understand that this problem is much older than Israel, right?

 

[sun rise]

This latest tactic looks like window dressing.
It remains to be seen if his "sanctions lite" threat
will boost his image where it suffers, eg, SE MI,
which has many Muslims, blacks, & young people.
Genocide Joe is losing ground with them because
of his unquestioned deadly devotion to Israel.

I have it. Bye.