U.S. support for Israel

[dogsgod]

:yes: I will always support Israel.

I love Israel too much to support the direction it's going in. Now that walls have been built and a great deal of checkpoints are in place for the sole purpose of making life hell for Palestinians, there is little reason to go back there. Israel is an apartheid state.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Yes dogsgod, some of the things Israel is doing currently is detestable.

 

[fallingblood]

Please quote your sources:

Consider the following:

LGBT rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel does not stand for Jewish beliefs. Actually more Jews live outside of Israel then they do within.

Jews, Muslims, Christians agree to hate gays

One example of hatred of homosexuality from Jews (I'm not saying all Jews hate homosexuals, just like not all Muslims do). Also, have you read the Torah? It teaches that homosexuality is an abomination. (Again, not saying that all Jews hate homosexuals).

But please, explain what your point is in this thread. Now that you know that Iraq has nothing to do with the subject, you may want to start reforming your main thesis.

 

[Perfect Circle]

what has the war in Iraq have to do with Israel, Palestine or even osama bin ladan? To blame Israel and Jews for going to war in Iraq spending peoples tax money and loosing lives of American solders (who think they are fighting for American freedom) is antisemitism and nothing more. It is always when people look to through the blame on someone they always find Jews.

Look... I totally disagree with what the OP'er is saying here, but you have seriously got to stop screaming anti-semite every chance you get. Maybe they have a legitimate grievance with the policies of Israel and it has nothing to do with what race the people happen to be.

All I'm saying is maybe chill out pulling the anti-semite card at every possible opportunity..

 

[Agnostic75]

Israel does not stand for Jewish beliefs. Actually more Jews live outside of Israel then they do within.

But I mentioned Israel in the opening post, not Jews. As I showed in my post #16, an article as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_ri...litary_service says that Israelis are generally very tolerant towards homosexuals.

Jews, Muslims, Christians agree to hate gays

The following is from the article:

"Orthodox Jews, conservative Muslims and prominent Christian leaders are united in their opposition to a gay pride march in Jerusalem, a city that's holy to all three religions."

Yes, but as the article that I mentioned says, "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East.[1] In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor; this ruling was despite protests by the Orthodox Jewish parliamentary parties (which are a minority). Common law marriage has already been similarly achieved (which grants most of the official marriage rights to the spouse), but full official same-sex marriage has not yet been sanctioned. However, same-sex marriages performed elsewhere are recognized. Israel also has one of the highest percentages of support for same-sex marriage in the world, with 61% of Israelis supporting civil marriage for same-sex couples."

Of course there is opposition to homosexuals in Israel, and everywhere else in the world for that matter, but Muslims nations generally treat homosexuals much worse than Israelis do. I doubt that many of even the staunchest Jewish opponents of homosexuality around the world endorse beating, imprisoning, or killing homosexuals.

Now that you know that Iraq has nothing to do with the subject, you may want to start reforming your main thesis.

My position is that 1) Muslims have some reasonable moral arguments to make about the Partition of Palestine in 1948, that 2) I generally prefer Jews to Muslims, that 3) although many people claim that Muslims do not have viable military options, Muslims believe that their terrortist tactics will eventually prevail, just as if the U.S. were invaded and occupied by a superior power, many people in the U.S. would still resort to terrorism to try to defeat the invaders, and that 4) it is reasonably possible that the U.S. should not have taken sides in the first place.

I believe that Muslims, Jews, and the U.S. have all made mistakes. As far as the best approach that the U.S. should currently take, who knows, but I believe that Israel should stop building new settlements in disputed areas.

I made a mistake about Israeli involvement in the Iraq war, but you have made many mistakes in a number of threads. I do not mind admitting that I am wrong when I know that I am wrong.

 

[fallingblood]

First, you were talking about Jews and Muslims in the course of homosexuality. I addressed that subject in that manner. You can then change and say that Israel is more tolerant, but that has nothing to do with Jews per se then as Israel is a nation full of Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. So your point is mute in the idea that you prefer Jews for their stance on homosexuality, which you have not proven.

As for your position, Muslims may have some arguments, but they lost. It is as simple as that. Do Native Americans have some arguments about the land in the United States? Of course they do, but it doesn't matter because they lost. If we were to take your idea, we can use it for any number of civilizations. Look at the Romans, the Greeks, the Russians, the British, that Hebrews, etc. They have all taken others lands, and those who were defeated would all have arguments, but it doesn't matter, as they lost.

 

[arimoff]

Look... I totally disagree with what the OP'er is saying here, but you have seriously got to stop screaming anti-semite every chance you get. Maybe they have a legitimate grievance with the policies of Israel and it has nothing to do with what race the people happen to be.

All I'm saying is maybe chill out pulling the anti-semite card at every possible opportunity..

When world events change then I would be glad to dismiss antisemitism, it is not a card that people use when it interests them, it is current events that force people to scream antisemitism. To read some peoples opinions such as should Israel give back land do they belong there or not is disgusting, I haven't read one statement in this entire forum witch questions someones right to exist on a certain land or to exist at all, has Syria or any other country in the middle east have the right to exist or only when it concerns Israel? there is at least one new thread opened every day with a question similar to the one in this thread.

Certainly our freedom of speech and human equality permits to discuss any subject or idea but what is our freedom worth if it doesn't turn in to action?

Just one example, Chechen leader took the responsibility for blowing up trains in Moscow, he claims it is a pay back for what Russia did last month in chechnia, they killed 18 terrorists and 5 civilians who they claim were used as a shield. Sounds familiar? certainly does but yet Russia still blames Israel for killing civilians who are also claimed to be used as a shield. So what is it? double standards? maybe but when you backtrack the treatment of Jews in Russia and Europe it is not double standards anymore, it is straight up antisemitism.

 

[McBell]

:yes: I will always support Israel.

Why?

 

[Agnostic75]

First, you were talking about Jews and Muslims in the course of homosexuality. I
addressed that subject in that manner.

Yes, and not only did I adquately refute you arguments in the thread on Muslims and homosexuality, but some other people did too, including a Muslim.

You can then change and say that Israel is more tolerant, but that has nothing to do with Jews per se then as Israel is a nation full of Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. So your point is mute in the idea that you prefer Jews for their stance on homosexuality, which you have not proven.

How utterly absurd. Wikipedia says that 7.5 million people live in Israel, and 5.7 million of them are Jews. That means that 76% of the people who live in Israel are Jews.

Consider the following from my post #16:

And many Jewish people support injuring, killing, and imprisoning homosexuals.

Please quote your sources.

You provided a source, but your source only said that various conservative groups in Israel oppose homosexuality, not, as you falsely claimed, that "many Jewish people support injuring, killing, and imprisoning homosexuals." Nothing in your source says that, so you provably made a false claim.

On the other hand I provided the following evidence:

LGBT rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) rights in Israel are considered the most developed in the Middle East. In November 2005, a groundbreaking court decision in Israel ruled that a lesbian spouse could officially adopt a child born to her current partner, by artificial insemination from an anonymous sperm donor; this ruling was despite protests by the Orthodox Jewish parliamentary parties (which are a minority). Common law marriage has already been similarly achieved (which grants most of the official marriage rights to the spouse), but full official same-sex marriage has not yet been sanctioned. However, same-sex marriages performed elsewhere are recognized.

Israel also has one of the highest percentages of support for same-sex marriage in the world, with 61% of Israelis supporting civil marriage for same-sex couples.

Israel, Jordan, Turkey, Iraq and Cyprus are the only countries in the Middle Eastwhere homosexuality between consenting adults in private is not illegal and homosexuals are not persecuted under law. In most other Middle Eastern countries homosexuality is illegal, often punishable by flogging and even hanging. Israel was the first country in Asia where homosexuals were protected by anti-discrimination laws, and remains the only country in the Middle East to provide such legal protection.

Out Magazine has named Tel Aviv "the gay capital of the Middle East." In August 2009, an armed attacker shot dead two people and injured 15 more in an attack on a lesbian and gay centre in Tel Aviv. The incident has been deplored by many organizations and government officials, such as the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, and President Shimon Peres.

Openly gay soldiers serve without hindrance in all branches of the military. Discrimination against gay and lesbian soldiers in recruitment, placement and promotion is prohibited in Israel.

Since 1993, homosexuals have been allowed to openly serve in the military, including special units.

I proved my point and you know, and everyone can see that I did, but you still claim that I didn't.

Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that Muslims generally treat homosexuals much worse than Jews do. In many predominantly Muslim countries, homosexuals are stoned, imprisoned, or killed. Israel would not do that.

As for your position, Muslims may have some arguments, but they lost. It is as simple as that. Do Native Americans have some arguments about the land in the United States? Of course they do, but it doesn't matter because they lost.

But for most people, modern arguments are much more important than ancient argument. The Partition of Palestine only occured 62 years ago. Some of the Muslims who were alive then are still alive today, and saw their land stolen from them. Today, if a superior power conquered the U.S., you can bet that many Americans would resist the superior power even though they were militarily inferior, and would still resist the superior power 62 years later.

There is nothing wrong with discussing morality, and trying to learn from past mistakes.

 

[fallingblood]

Yes, and not only did I adquately refute you arguments in the thread on Muslims and homosexuality, but some other people did too, including a Muslim.

Honestly, I've ignored most of what you've said. However, I don't think my point was refuted as you don't seem to get my point. My point was that Jewish people are also persecuting homosexuals. You really haven't even addressed what I said accept for quoting wikipedia on an issue with Israel and their stance for homosexual rights. However, that doesn't show Jews are more tolerant of homosexuality. It shows that the state of Israel is more tolerant.

Again, you haven't refuted my point as I don't think you truly understand it. I mean, the Torah, a Jewish Holy Book, says that homosexuality is an abomination. Pretty much along the same lines as what the Islamic holy scripture says.

Again, as this seems to be difficult to a point. My point was that Jews persecute homosexuals as well. You have never proven this wrong, or directly addressed this issue. What you have done is cite a meaningless (in this particular case) source that talks about Israel (not Jews).

How utterly absurd. Wikipedia says that 7.5 million people live in Israel, and 5.7 million of them are Jews. That means that 76% of the people who live in Israel are Jews.

So Israel is not full of Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc? Again, the stance that Israel takes does not state what Jews around the world stand for. There is a distinction between Israel and Jews. I do believe that should go without saying.

You provided a source, but your source only said that various conservative groups in Israel oppose homosexuality, not, as you falsely claimed, that "many Jewish people support injuring, killing, and imprisoning homosexuals." Nothing in your source says that, so you provably made a false claim.

Nothing in your source said that Jews don't hate homosexuals. The source that I presented supported what I claimed. Certainly, I would have to post additional support, but again, it was more support that you had for your view, so I thought it was fair enough. Again, the source you provided stated nothing about Jews accepting homosexuality (actually it even stated that the conservative Jews opposed homosexuality, so that is two sources now supporting what I said).

I proved my point and you know, and everyone can see that I did, but you still claim that I didn't.

You proved that Israel does not persecute homosexuals. Israel and Jew are not interchangeable. Sorry, it was a failure.

But for most people, modern arguments are much more important than ancient argument. The Partition of Palestine only occured 62 years ago. Some of the Muslims who were alive then are still alive today, and saw their land stolen from them. Today, if a superior power conquered the U.S., you can bet that many Americans would resist the superior power even though they were militarily inferior, and would still resist the superior power 62 years later.

There is nothing wrong with discussing morality, and trying to learn from past mistakes.

Are you familiar with the history of Palestine? Did the Muslims really have their land stolen by the Jews (Israelis)? Or is it not true that Muslim rule ended in about 1914 when the British took over (I forget the exact year, but give or take 3 years). And that was what, about a hundred years ago, so you're just a little off.

 

[Agnostic75]

Are you familiar with the history of Palestine? Did the Muslims really have their land stolen by the Jews (Israelis)? Or is it not true that Muslim rule ended in about 1914 when the British took over (I forget the exact year, but give or take 3 years). And that was what, about a hundred years ago, so you're just a little off.

Although various sources differ, it appears that in 1948, there were at least twice as many Palestinians in Palestine than Jews, and the Jews got roughly twice as much land as the Palestinians did, including the main prize, which was Jerusalem.

I believe that it is reasonably possible that the U.S. should never have become involved in Palestine.

 

[Agnostic75]

You proved that Israel does not persecute homosexuals. Israel and Jew are not interchangeable. Sorry, it was a failure.

I will start a new thread on this issue.

 

[kai]

Although various sources differ, it appears that in 1948, there were at least twice as many Palestinians in Palestine than Jews, and the Jews got roughly twice as much land as the Palestinians did, including the main prize, which was Jerusalem.

I believe that it is reasonably possible that the U.S. should never have become involved in Palestine.

That all depends on who actually is a Palestinian, have you forgotten the state of Jordan in your calculations? and don't forget until 67 war the west bank was Jordanian.

 

[Agnostic75]

I do not have time right now to conduct the necessary research regarding the Partition of Palestine in 1948. So far, it appears to me that Palestians have at least some moral ground. I do not know why there are not more public debates about the Partition of Palestine in 1948 since it is an important moral issue.

As I have said before, it is reasonbly possible that the U.S. should never have become involved in Palestine.

 

[Caladan]

Although various sources differ, it appears that in 1948, there were at least twice as many Palestinians in Palestine than Jews, and the Jews got roughly twice as much land as the Palestinians did, including the main prize, which was Jerusalem.

I believe that it is reasonably possible that the U.S. should never have become involved in Palestine.

You have started a thread with an outrageously poorly informed basis, please, before you resume the trend, check some basic sources. under the patrition plan, the Jews did not get Jerusalem, Jerusalem was to be internationally administrated, this left 100,000 Jews who lived in the Jewish part of the city cut off from the Jewish state. further more lets examine your claim that the Jews received double the size in land, as the map shows a great deal of the land the Jews received was the barren Negev desert.

 

[Agnostic75]

You have started a thread with an outrageously poorly informed basis, please, before you resume the trend, check some basic sources. under the patrition plan, the Jews did not get Jerusalem, Jerusalem was to be internationally administrated, this left 100,000 Jews who lived in the Jewish part of the city cut of from the Jewish state. further more lets examine your claim that the Jews received double the size in land, as the map shows a great deal of the land the Jews received was barren Negev desert.

A pro-Palestinian article at Why did Arabs reject the proposed UN GA partition plan which split Palestine into Jewish and Arab states? disagrees with you, but I do not know if it is correct.

If I am wrong about the distribution of land in 1948, then I made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. If I am provided with sufficient evidence that the land was distributed fairly in 1948, I will retract my position.

As I have said before, I generally prefer Jews to Muslims.

 

[Caladan]

A pro-Palestinian article at Why did Arabs reject the proposed UN GA partition plan which split Palestine into Jewish and Arab states? disagrees with you, but I do not know if it is correct.

On what does it disagree with me? that the UN has decided that Jerusalem would be internationally administrated? all one has to do is read the partition plan itself.

If I am wrong about the distribution of land in 1948, then I made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. If I am provided with sufficient evidence that the land was distributed fairly in 1948, I will retract my position.

It saves a lot of trouble for members who are interested in middle eastern politics to not have to deal with basic misinformation. when people 'drop bombs' on issues such as the US-Israeli relations, I expect them to at least be minimally informed on the basics and not post scenarios that are seem to be taken out of a conspiracy theories forum.

As I have said before, I generally prefer Jews to Muslims.

That's a pretty disturbing comment right there.

 

[Agnostic75]

On what does it disagree with me? That the UN has decided that Jerusalem would be internationally administrated? All one has to do is read the partition plan itself.

The article says "Are you aware that Jewish land ownership in Palestine was under 7% as of 1947?" If that is true, how was it fair for Jews to immediately own far more of Palestine than they did before the partition?

The article also says "it's hypocritical when on one hand Zionists use UN GA partition plan as a pretext to legitimize Israel's existence, while they've rejected almost every other UN resolution since Israel's creation, chief among them UN GA resolution 194 that called for the immediate return to all Palestinian refugees to their homes in Israel. To suit Zionists' political agenda, they have deliberately chosen to ignore most, if not all, of UN resolutions concerning Palestine and its people, of course with the exception of withdrawing from occupied southern Lebanon in May 2000. Sadly, Israel has accepted that UN resolution not because it was influenced by a UN, a U.S., or even a European diplomatic pressure, but because it was compelled to do so by the heroic Lebanese resistance."

The article also says "On February 7th, 1948, while addressing the Mapai Council [Ben-Gurion] responded to a remark that the 'Jews have no land in the Jerusalem corridor' with the following:

'The war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning.'" (Benny Morris, p. 170 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 180)

Since a large percentage of Muslims endorse injuring, imprisoning, or killing homosexuals, why shouldn't I generally favor Jews over Muslims?

 

[Perfect Circle]

When world events change then I would be glad to dismiss antisemitism, it is not a card that people use when it interests them, it is current events that force people to scream antisemitism. To read some peoples opinions such as should Israel give back land do they belong there or not is disgusting, I haven't read one statement in this entire forum witch questions someones right to exist on a certain land or to exist at all, has Syria or any other country in the middle east have the right to exist or only when it concerns Israel? there is at least one new thread opened every day with a question similar to the one in this thread.

How is it disgusting? I agree that it's a bit ridiculous to try and right all the wrongs of the past, but that doesn't make it disgusting. There are still Native Americans who want their land back from the US govt., but that doesn't make it disgusting.. just unrealistic. And the reason you don't see such threads about Syria is because the US doesn't politically, economically, and militarily support them. If Syria makes a politically questionable move, then so what... but if Israel does, it reflects badly on the US.

Certainly our freedom of speech and human equality permits to discuss any subject or idea but what is our freedom worth if it doesn't turn in to action?

I'm not sure what you mean here...

Just one example, Chechen leader took the responsibility for blowing up trains in Moscow, he claims it is a pay back for what Russia did last month in chechnia, they killed 18 terrorists and 5 civilians who they claim were used as a shield. Sounds familiar? certainly does but yet Russia still blames Israel for killing civilians who are also claimed to be used as a shield. So what is it? double standards? maybe but when you backtrack the treatment of Jews in Russia and Europe it is not double standards anymore, it is straight up antisemitism.

I honestly have no idea what this has to do with anything. Something about Russian anti-semitism...? I don't know. Regardless... all I'm saying is that maybe you should address the misguided and misinformed opinion of the OP'er as opposed to acting like the Al Sharpton of Jews.

 

[berrychrisc]

"Should the US support Israel?"

No. No more money, no more planes, no more weapons. We need to stop spending money propping up an arbitrarily imposed "country" that after 60 years still can't defend itself without military aid and spend it on areas of the world that legitimately need our help, like Darfur. Israel should petition the UN for military aid against its agressors.

I think we should do what we can to guarantee that Israel is not '"pushed into the sea", even if that means going to war in defense of Israel.

The US should absolutely not go to war to defend Israel. Let the UN defend them,if they still feel like it after having Israel defy their rulings.

But at the same time, I do not believe we have any responsibility to support Israel's illegal settlement policy, and that, in fact, we should instead oppose Israel's illegal settlement policy.

But somehow we'll keep turning a blind eye to it and keep sending guns and money to them, all the while incurring the hatred of the rest of the Middle East in the process.