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UK EU Referendum - Stay in or leave?

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
I said evidence that is balanced...I just looked at the blog which you recommend for lay people and the first paragraphs I read say...

"After much labour, we have finally produced the Flexcit pamphlet. It is available as a free download from this link, or the permanent link on the sidebar. If you want hard copy, it can be ordered from the Bruges Group for £5.00 including p&p.
The pamphlet summarises in 48 A-5 pages the
online book which has now had in excess of 50,000 downloads. It sets out how the UK can leave the European Union and is intended to show that an orderly exit is plausible and practical, and can be largely risk-free. "

Balanced, I think not.

I like how you casually skip over the first link--clearly, you have no idea as to the extent of the intricacies of the Union: and the maze it will be to detach from 40+ years of integration.

The problem with "DAE le balanced?" meme is that factual observation should not be discarded for the sake of pursuit of balance. It's like those "Evolution v Creationism" debates: why present a BALANCED argument when, clearly, there is factual observation that is to not be disputed.
Indeed, not a single commentator has successfully rebutted Richard North--his analysing skills unparalleled in this issue. If you can find flaw with what he says, then I agree, we should pursue balance. But until then, it is but futile.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I like how you casually skip over the first link--clearly, you have no idea as to the extent of the intricacies of the Union: and the maze it will be to detach from 40+ years of integration.

The problem with "DAE le balanced?" meme is that factual observation should not be discarded for the sake of pursuit of balance. It's like those "Evolution v Creationism" debates: why present a BALANCED argument when, clearly, there is factual observation that is to not be disputed.
Indeed, not a single commentator has successfully rebutted Richard North--his analysing skills unparalleled in this issue. If you can find flaw with what he says, then I agree, we should pursue balance. But until then, it is but futile.
I didn't "...casually skip over the first link...", I just have no inkling to read a legal document. I find them confusing and unless explained open to interpretation. I read plenty of these types of things in my job and they are hard work.
Good grief comparing Stay v Leave to Evolution v Creationism, you are committed to leaving!!
Are you really telling me that in all the complex issues of the EU that there are absolutely no advantages to staying in?
Richard North, is that the same Richard North who denies climate change? You say North has never been 'Successfully rebutted', well of course not, any rebuttal of his arguments would be treated by you as a failure, no matter the validity of their points. He has however been rebutted many times as a simple google search will reveal.
Look, you want OUT, I get that. But please stop being condescending to those you consider to be less informed. To return to your analogy, it appears to me that you only read the Answers in Genesis website, perhaps you should broaden your research.
 
so I'm an american and I'm not very world aware can someone sum up what is the EU, it's goals, pros and cons. from that I could be able to make an informed opinion as to whether the UK should stay or not.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
If Britain leaves, that poses a serious threat to the continued existence of the EU, which is great. The eurosceptics are already doing well in France, with Britain gone there will be a big surge in euroscepticism across Europe, I don't believe the EU will be able to stay together.
It would be great; euroscepticism is growing even in my country, and people have finally realized that the Euro system is a fraud, exclusively created to increase the wealth of the ECB. The UK did very well, when it decided not to enter the Eurozone. If the UK leaves the EU, Sweden and Denmark will follow the example, and the EU will be gone in few years.
The EU was meant to be a balanced treaty...but the game of a technocratic and money-hungry financial élite has gone too far, and the perpetrators will have to accept the consequences.
 
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Underhill

Well-Known Member
I'm an American so take my opinion as you will, but this debate reminds me of our debates over school consolidation.

Economically it's good when looking at the big picture, but can hurt the top schools. In the same way it is generally good for students, offering them more opportunities, although it can hurt the best and brightest since they now have to share resources with the best and brightest from the other schools not to mention compete with them.

Some are against it because they want to keep their mascot, school teams and their own band for parades (their culture if you will). Some are for it because they see the economic advantages and the increased opportunities it can give students.

Personally I would say stick with it. Make it stronger. Globalization is inevitable, as much as I sometimes dislike the notion, so get on with it already.

Not that my opinion matters.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I don't know much about European politics, but when did Britain lose a war against any European country? Didn't they kick Germany, France, Spain's butts pretty decisively? for what?

Seems like Britain should be calling the shots there- at least getting the French to stop being cruel to geese..

France got their own back when they supported the american rebels in the war of independance.
But hsd their butts kicked agin in Canada.

so it goes on.....
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
I'm an American so take my opinion as you will, but this debate reminds me of our debates over school consolidation.

Economically it's good when looking at the big picture, but can hurt the top schools. In the same way it is generally good for students, offering them more opportunities, although it can hurt the best and brightest since they now have to share resources with the best and brightest from the other schools not to mention compete with them.

Some are against it because they want to keep their mascot, school teams and their own band for parades (their culture if you will). Some are for it because they see the economic advantages and the increased opportunities it can give students.

Personally I would say stick with it. Make it stronger. Globalization is inevitable, as much as I sometimes dislike the notion, so get on with it already.

Not that my opinion matters.
Why do you think globalisation is inevitable?
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
Why do you think globalisation is inevitable?

It may be wishful thinking, but too many of the worlds problems can only be dealt with if done as a united front. From poverty to climate we will never solve our problems until we unite to deal with them. Not to mention the middle east, Russia and other global political problems where taking a united front lends a stronger voice.

On top of this our technology is bringing us all closer. Old notions of superiority are going out the window as people actually get to know those of other countries.

Not to mention when the aliens come, we will need to work together to deal with that whole mess...
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I asked my daughter how she will vote, "Stay in", she replied without hesitation. I think that's convinced me, it'll affect her more than me, I'll support her opinion.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Obama's intervention will make swing voters think. It's a decisive entry, no matter what the already-decided Brexiters say. Obama has demolished their shaky economic proposals, proposals that lie at the heart of their agenda.

I'm voting to remain. My decision is as much strategic as it is economic.

The EU is far from perfect as an institution. It has a democratic deficit that needs addressing, quite apart from the Eurozone crises and the refugee crisis.

However it is the world's largest single market - all of 500 million people, most in highly developed countries. Having a common system of rules and regulations for goods, services etc. in addition to a free trade area has proved indispensable for the growth of our economy. It makes business easier, much easier.We have 500 million consumers looking for quality goods; We are the world's largest single market. We have free movement for workers between Member States.

Just consider the perilous state of the UK economy before it joined the EEC in the 1970s, compared with today. When Britain joined the European Communities in 1973 it was the sick man of Europe. GDP in France, West Germany and Italy - the three largest economies to take part in founding the EU back in 1957 - had risen by 95% compared with only 50% in non-EU Britain. That's why we wanted to join.

Today Britain is more prosperous than Italy and France. By 2030, the UK is forecasted to have the largest economy in the EU and the largest population in the EU by 2040. We will be a more formidable member state than Germany, the "first among equals" in the EU. We will be able to mould Europe in our image and through the EU play an outsized role in world affairs relative to our size. The EU will be better for our leadership and direction.

France is a great military power but economically weakened. Germany is an industrial behemoth but lacks basic military capabilities. The UK alone remains both a military and economic power on the continent - our future is to lead the continent as its premier member state.

The truly patriotic decision on June 23 is to embrace this future - a future in which Britain is the pre-eminent member state of the EU and through her can have an influence in world affairs we have not had since the heyday of empire and could never dream of having again on our own, as an island of 65 million people.

If Britain had not joined the common market in 1973, economists estimate that we would have fallen well behind continental Europe and the U.S. The difference in our prospects today is staggering by comparison.
 
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Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
The UK leaving the EU would be a massive financial dent in our economy and buying power. The reality is and it's quite sad, that most of the EU leavers base their opinions on xenophobic ideas of new nations possibly joining the EU, namely Turkey and these brown people coming to "aaar laaand". I remember talking to one such person who spouted a bunch of financial nonsense, when I corrected him he fell back on the default setting of a bigot "yeah but, so many foreigners are gonna come in and take our jobs".

SMH.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
Well my postal vote form has arrived, I've filled it in, just need to get it posted.

Same here. Both me and my husband have completed it straight away, just need to post it.

Edit: Also I found this quite funny, and since I do like some Monty Python...

 
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