Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Tomef]

the Government had passed a law forbidding Donbas people from speaking Russian

Why do you imagine this happened? The Ukrainian constitution and legislative documents are available in English. In which language did you read this, and where? You can provide an internet link or the full title of the law as passed (in whatever language you want).

 

[Tomef]

No...he is addressing to the Kievan government, because the Government had passed a law forbidding Donbas people from speaking Russian.
And yes, there is so much evidence about this.
In Ukrainian language, of course.

Not in English, because the press in English is controlled by the elitist cabal.

If you are referring to the law Lavrov misrepresented, the text can be found here in English: https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-REF(2019)036-e

Perhaps you can explain why you think it ‘bans’ the Russian language.

 

[Stevicus]

Rus, not Russians. Scandinavians who migrated south, in the same way Angles, Saxons and Jutes migrated across the water to Britain, at more or less the same time. Why the Rus have this special status in these kinds of discussions I’m not sure. No-one outside of some odd far right groups, afaik, thinks of England and Germany sharing the same kind of mythical bond, or at least not to the same maudlin degree. Ethnicity doesn’t determine some kind of parallel development. The culture, eventual ethnic mix, language and other elements of what constitutes a nationality of the Rus who settled in the area later called Kyivan Run, and those who settled in Muscovy, are within the same bounds of difference as between Celts, Angles, Turkic peoples and so on. There’s nothing Russian about Ukraine any more than there’s anything German about England, it’s all just vague rhetoric based on very little. The Hungarian speaking minorities here in Romania are not Hungarian, they are Romanians who speak a dialect of Hungarian - their culture is not the same as Hungarian culture beyond a few superficialities, the rest is myth. There’s no difference between that and the divergence of Ukraine and Russia, they are two separate nationalities. The Russian Federation itself is not really a country, just a confederation of partners with varying degrees of willingness. But somehow this notion that Ukraine is Russia has spread.

I agree that the historical connections are vicarious and may not really be all that relevant in the modern era, but that doesn't mean they're a myth either. The reality was that there were different tribal groups running through the region, so the question of who the historical "owner" of the land is pretty much a dead issue. But that does not negate the historical connection. I mentioned it primarily to put in the perspective that it's more of a "local dispute" than anything that needs to involve the West.

I will say that I've heard both Russian and Ukrainian spoken, and there are marked similarities to the point where they're almost mutually understandable. I was practicing Russian with a Ukrainian guy (who was practicing his English), and he started speaking in Ukrainian, which was clearly different, but I could understand most of what he was saying. That doesn't mean that "Ukraine is Russia" (nor do I think anyone has said that), but linguistically, I've personally observed that they're very closely related.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you are referring to the law Lavrov misrepresented, the text can be found here in English: https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/documents/default.aspx?pdffile=CDL-REF(2019)036-e

Perhaps you can explain why you think it ‘bans’ the Russian language.

Yes, it bans it.
In school there's no Russian. Just Ukrainian. It's implicit.

And again: I have provided you with the example of South Tyrol. If we Italians forced South Tyroleans to speak Italian only in schools, they would rise up against us, and Austria would invade Italy. And rightfully so.

 

[Stevicus]

That doesn’t seem like a viable option, unfortunately.

And that's the sad bottom line of this whole discussion.

 

[Tomef]

I agree that the historical connections are vicarious and may not really be all that relevant in the modern era, but that doesn't mean they're a myth either. The reality was that there were different tribal groups running through the region, so the question of who the historical "owner" of the land is pretty much a dead issue. But that does not negate the historical connection. I mentioned it primarily to put in the perspective that it's more of a "local dispute" than anything that needs to involve the West.

I will say that I've heard both Russian and Ukrainian spoken, and there are marked similarities to the point where they're almost mutually understandable. I was practicing Russian with a Ukrainian guy (who was practicing his English), and he started speaking in Ukrainian, which was clearly different, but I could understand most of what he was saying. That doesn't mean that "Ukraine is Russia" (nor do I think anyone has said that), but linguistically, I've personally observed that they're very closely related.

Sure, in the same way I can more or less get the general gist of spoken Italian because I speak Spanish. I don’t think however that anyone (or almost no-one, you can always find a nut on any topic) would claim on that basis that Italians are Spanish, or vice versa. The fact that the two countries border each other is an issue that can be found elsewhere in Europe. Arguments can be made for it, but arguments can be made for anything. Somehow though this notion that Ukraine really is just a bit of Russia has gained a vague and vaguely broad acceptance it doesn’t merit.

 

[Tomef]

Yes, it bans it.
In school there's no Russian. Just Ukrainian. It's implicit.

And again: I have provided you with the example of South Tyrol. If we Italians forced South Tyroleans to speak Italian only in schools, they would rise up against us, and Austria would invade Italy. And rightfully so.

On the contrary, it explicitly states the right of ethnic minorities to receive education in their own language alongside the state language.

You really can’t admit being wrong, can you? You claimed there was a massacre - wrong; you claimed the Russian language was banned in the Donbas by law -wrong. Now you want to say you meant something else - but that is wrong too. Are you old enough to admit error?

A question for you - at what points in history have the residents of South Tyrol attempted to eradicate Italian language and culture from the rest of the country?

 

[Stevicus]

Sure, in the same way I can more or less get the general gist of spoken Italian because I speak Spanish. I don’t think however that anyone (or almost no-one, you can always find a nut on any topic) would claim on that basis that Italians are Spanish, or vice versa. The fact that the two countries border each other is an issue that can be found elsewhere in Europe. Arguments can be made for it, but arguments can be made for anything. Somehow though this notion that Ukraine really is just a bit of Russia has gained a vague and vaguely broad acceptance it doesn’t merit.

I don't think anyone is saying that they're the same as each other. Even if they were, I would agree that it doesn't have any relevance. No one would argue that America and Canada are "the same," even though we speak the same language. It wouldn't justify invading. (We tried that once, and it didn't work out too well.)

On the other hand, when Hitler invaded Austria, the Austrians cheered for him. I wonder if Putin was expecting that kind of welcome from Ukraine.

 

[Tomef]

I don't think anyone is saying that they're the same as each other. Even if they were, I would agree that it doesn't have any relevance. No one would argue that America and Canada are "the same," even though we speak the same language. It wouldn't justify invading. (We tried that once, and it didn't work out too well.)

On the other hand, when Hitler invaded Austria, the Austrians cheered for him. I wonder if Putin was expecting that kind of welcome from Ukraine.

It seems like he was - apparently based on bad intelligence, which may have had something to do with the ‘don’t say anything the boss won’t want to hear’ culture.

 

[Estro Felino]

On the contrary, it explicitly states the right of ethnic minorities to receive education in their own language alongside the state language.

I can read in Ukrainian. Can you provide me with an Ukrainian source?

You really can’t admit being wrong, can you? You claimed there was a massacre - wrong; you claimed the Russian language was banned in the Donbas by law -wrong. Now you want to say you meant something else - but that is wrong too. Are you old enough to admit error?

I am sorry, I am not wrong.
And I trust Putin.
I don't trust the CIA who stabbed my country in the back multiple times. Despite 80 years of blind loyalty.

A question for you - at what points in history have the residents of South Tyrol attempted to eradicate Italian language and culture from the rest of the country?

During Fascism.

 

[Tomef]

can read in Ukrainian. Can you provide me with a Ukrainian source?

You can’t find that yourself, as you can’t find any evidence for your own claims? I’m sorry but if you’re unable to take part in discussion maturely I’m not going to waste any more time.

 

[Tomef]

During Fascism.

They did? The residents of South Tyrol attempted to make German the state language, and to completely eradicate all use of Italian language and literature? That’s interesting, if you can provide some sort of evidence I’d actually like to read about that.

 

[Tomef]

I am sorry, I am not wrong.
And I trust Putin.
I don't trust the CIA who stabbed my country in the back multiple times. Despite 80 years of blind loyalty.

You are demonstrably wrong. You can produce no evidence to support anything you have claimed, and you have no response to the evidence that clearly and specifically shows you are wrong. Hence, you are wrong.

 

[Estro Felino]

You can’t find that yourself, as you can’t find any evidence for your own claims? I’m sorry but if you’re unable to take part in discussion maturely I’m not going to waste any more time.

I did find it,
It says that Donbas people cannot speak any other language than Ukrainian at school.

 

[Estro Felino]

You are demonstrably wrong. You can produce no evidence to support anything you have claimed, and you have no response to the evidence that clearly and specifically shows you are wrong. Hence, you are wrong.

You trust the CIA.
I trust Putin.
Period.

 

[Estro Felino]

They did? The residents of South Tyrol attempted to make German the state language, and to completely eradicate all use of Italian language and literature? That’s interesting, if you can provide some sort of evidence I’d actually like to read about that.

No, the other way around. The Italian Government imposed Italian on them. Against their will.
What Kiev has been doing in Donbas.

 

[Tomef]

I did find it,
It says that Donbas people cannot speak any other language than Ukrainian at school.

Let me guess- you’re not going to post a link or the quote because…?

 

[Tomef]

You trust the CIA.
I trust Putin.
Period.

Where do you think the CIA come into this?

 

[Tomef]

What Kiev has been doing in Donbas.

Again, you are simply wrong.

 

[Stevicus]

And I trust Putin.
I don't trust the CIA who stabbed my country in the back multiple times. Despite 80 years of blind loyalty.

I don't think it's a good idea to put trust in Putin or have blind loyalty to the CIA either. Governments and politicians operate as they do, but we can only hope that they're reasonable enough to be able to meet the needs of the people and the nation as a whole within the normal parameters and limitations every government has to face. To be sure, America's leadership seems off in la-la land these days. That recent spat in Congress between MTG and AOC takes the cake. And it's hard to say where all this Trump business is leading.

The whole country is going to hell in handbasket, yet they're arguing over porn stars and false eyelashes. Meanwhile, the suffering continues throughout the world, in Ukraine, Israel, Yemen, Iran, and many other places.