Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Tomef]

I would take issue with the notion of singling Russia out as the only bad guy in the history of that region

Where has anyone claimed that?

 

[Estro Felino]

That says it all. Silly for me to waste time on this. If you read any of the, actually reliable, reports I sent you perhaps you can explain why nothing that has actually happened fits with anything you think. If you don’t like engaging with real things, well, that’s your prerogative.

Putin's words are a real thing.
He explains the Donbas war in detail.

Why do you think it does? I mean what actually happened and what evidence do you have for thinking that it did?

Did you actually read the subtitles?
He says: "Leave them alone. Grant them the right to be able to speak Russian".

Whom he was addressing to? Who is supposed to leave Donbas people alone?

 

[Tomef]

Poland's government, in particular, was quite aggressive in their expansionist tendencies which the Russians had to fend off.

That seems a bit backwards. Most of what is now Ukraine was part of the Polish empire much earlier and for twice as long (about 4 centuries) as a comparable period under Russian control. And before that, it was under Lithuania’s aegis, which later ceded to Poland, so overall the period extends to one almost 3 times as long as Russia’s on/off control of parts of modern day Ukraine.

 

[Tomef]

Putin's words are a real thing.
He explains the Donbas war in detail.


Did you actually read the subtitles?
He says: "Leave them alone. Grant them the right to be able to speak Russian".

Whom he was addressing to? Who is supposed to leave Donbas people alone?

Ah I see the fantasy you’re spinning here. Well, he must have meant.... Of such meaningless conjecture are all such fantastical notions born. Once again, please prefer some sort of concrete evidence to back up what you are saying.

 

[Tomef]

Putin's words are a real thing.
He explains the Donbas war in detail.

You’re saying you take Putin as a reliable witness in this affair?

What evidence can you provide that gives you a reason to take his view as credible?

 

[Tomef]

From Russia's point of view, it's clear that European powers were aggressive towards them, taking advantage of the weakness caused by Russia falling under the Mongol Yoke. (Read up on the Time of Troubles in Russia for more info.)

The whole or Europe was one big mess of one army or another taking advantage of another’s weakness to seize land and resources for centuries. There’s nothing special about the supposed Kyiv/Muscovy relationship.

 

[Tomef]

When the Russians took what was then the Khanate of Crimea, all they were doing was taking another aggressive invader's prize.

That’s not entirely true. The Cossacks were a very mixed bunch, but they were the largest group and de facto ‘owners’ of Crimea in any terms that mattered. To the extent it is true, it does nothing to justify Russia’s claims that Crimea is somehow inherently Russian.

 

[Kathryn]

Ukrainian wide, 30 percent of them speak Russian. In the Donbas and Crimean regions, and in the city of Kharkiv, the dominant language is Russian.
My gosh, the Ukrainian language wasn't even the official state language till 2019!

Russian language in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stevicus]

Where has anyone claimed that?

It seems to be heavily implied in a lot of the rhetoric about Russia.

 

[Tomef]

Russia can't be blamed for the actions of other nations,

Who is blaming them?

and their responses and actions to the situation they were presented were normal and reasonable for any sovereign nation to take, given the circumstances and geopolitical constraints.

Well, yes, it all makes sense from Putin’s POV. It’s that POV however that is the issue. The whole ruckus is a clash of ideologies, the drunken, violent moron that is Russia that wants to drag Ukraine, the battered ex on the brink of divorce, and presumably other former vassal states back into some crude mix of medieval religiosity and soviet-style repression, and the imperfect but, to my mind anyway, preferable by far progressive mess of Europe. That’s what the fight is over. The same way some idiot drunk who thinks his ex has been poisoned against him by her new friends will use any means to drag her back home, Putin feels righteously outraged over the loss of control over Ukraine. He fears of course the break up of the Russian Federation, and he is right to.

 

[Kathryn]

It's easy to say "Russia - bad guys. Ukrainians - good guys. Poles - good guys." I want to know more about that area myself.

 

[Tomef]

It seems to be heavily implied in a lot of the rhetoric about Russia.

Do you have an example?

 

[Tomef]

Imperial Russia was ruling over Ukraine, which was an important part of the Russian Empire.

The then leader of the Kyivan Russian sold the ‘rights’ to a special relationship with Kyiv to the Muscovites, and later imperial Russia effectively control part of what is now Ukraine (most of the remainder coming under the Hasburgs), not quite the same thing, and that whole arrangement lasted little more than a century.

 

[Tomef]

But neither the Kerensky government nor the Bolsheviks were interested in entertaining the idea of Ukrainian independence.

Not quite true, as the largest faction in the republics they had Lenin over a barrel when it came to the recognition of Ukraine as a separate state within the USSR, as it remained throughout the soviet era. The grounds for the actual independence that came almost immediately after the fall of Soviet Russia (by a 92% majority vote) were well laid right from the beginning.

 

[Tomef]

Russia's fears appear rooted in Ukraine's dealings with the West and the possibility that Ukraine could join NATO, which the Russians considered to be an unacceptable threat to Russian security.

The NATO thing is a bit of a red herring. There have been NATO member states stacked up along Russian’s western border for years. Putin’s fear is the collapse of the federation - not because of external threats, but because no-one but the small minority who benefit from Putin’s kleptocracy and those still alive who are accustomed to Soviet ways wants their country to be part of it. There’s the emotional, psychological element to it too, of course, which I think is as real for Putin as for many at the top and very bottom of Russian society. They are heavily invested in their own mythology concerning Ukraine and Belarus.

 

[Tomef]

However, I don't accept the idea that Putin did what he did out of some kind of imagined "grand plan" to take over Europe or reconstitute the Soviet Union. I don't think that's plausible.

Well yes it’s fairly clear he doesn’t want to go back in the political sense. The land corridor to Moldova however, taking control of the entire coastline, is something he's not unlikely to aim for. The least he would settle for would be another puppet govt in Kyiv and some severe punishment for the Ukrainian people, what would happen after that, if Russia wins roundly, is likely to turn Eastwards for a while, I think. Accelerating a Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be of benefit to Putin’s worldview.

 

[Tomef]

That's the real shame of it all, considering the past 80 years of U.S. foreign policy. All we had to do was make a deal with the Russians, and we could have had a more peaceful and stable world. But for reasons which are difficult to fathom, our leaders just don't consider that an option. Maybe it's a legacy of Russophobia and McCarthyite redbaiting, but I can see it in some of the rhetoric that's been tossed about in recent years.

No so easy, though. The underlying assumption that Russia would develop into a modern nation, as a fair chunk of its population would like, was until recently an indelible mark on the western psyche. I don’t think anyone involved really took Putin’s medieval rhetoric about ‘values’ seriously.I mean, it’s not like he lives up to them himself.

 

[Revoltingest]

Putin should kiss the feet of the CIA.
Because it's the CIA that declared a war on the socialism and the anti-liberism that Russia believes in.
By turning the land of the Kievan Rus into a Sorosian stronghold.

This convinced the Russians to vote for Putin.
Putin was elected thanks to the hatred Russian people hate for certain banking élites.

I'm not familiar with that alternate reality.

 

[Stevicus]

That seems a bit backwards. Most of what is now Ukraine was part of the Polish empire much earlier and for twice as long (about 4 centuries) as a comparable period under Russian control. And before that, it was under Lithuania’s aegis, which later ceded to Poland, so overall the period extends to one almost 3 times as long as Russia’s on/off control of parts of modern day Ukraine.

Russians were there even further back, in the 9th century of the time of Kievan Rus. The people living there were Russians. Of course, their language diverged quite a bit due to separation from the other Russians around Moscow and Novgorod, as well as the centuries of occupation by Poland and Lithuania, as you mention. The word "Ukraine" is derived from the Russian "U kraina" which literally means "by the border," or "on the frontier" perhaps. One thing that does seem clear is that the people living there now are neither Polish nor Lithuanian, despite those countries' centuries-long rule over them. They weren't really Russians anymore, either, as they forged their own identity within the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Their national identity is now Ukrainian.

The Russians took Ukraine piecemeal, bit by bit - but these were territories which were nominally Polish - at least in the north. In the southern part of Ukraine, the Russians were still dealing with the Ottoman Turks, who ruled in that part. Crimea itself had always been considered a separate administrative division and only became part of Ukraine in the 1950s. That was an internal administrative decision made by the Soviet government at the time. It didn't matter at the time, since everything was ruled from Moscow anyway. And even the Donbas territories were part of Russia during Tsarist times, but the borders were redrawn during the Soviet period.

This may all be technically irrelevant to the current situation, since the boundaries are what they are, regardless of the circumstances of how they came about. But it's the circumstances of how it all came about which may be at issue. The Russians believe they've been cheated, and they ostensibly feel justified in taking what they believe to be theirs. Ukraine obviously disagrees, and therein lies the cause of the current conflict.

 

[Tomef]

That's the real shame of it all, considering the past 80 years of U.S. foreign policy. All we had to do was make a deal with the Russians, and we could have had a more peaceful and stable world. But for reasons which are difficult to fathom, our leaders just don't consider that an option. Maybe it's a legacy of Russophobia and McCarthyite redbaiting, but I can see it in some of the rhetoric that's been tossed about in recent years.

No so easy, though. The underlying assumption that Russia would develop into a modern nation, as a fair chunk of its population would like, was until recently an indelible mark on the western psyche. I don’t think anyone involved really took Putin’s medieval rhetoric about ‘values’ seriously as in there was always some underlying assumption that he or his kind would eventually see reason (as the western politicians saw it) and starting aiming to modernise Russia, or just disappear as democracy took hold. I mean, it’s not like Putin lives up to those values he expounds himself, but hypocrisy seems to be part of the package with these old school religious types.