Unbridled Capitalism is self-destructive

[Revoltingest]

Exactly.
Because your individualistic, personal, private beliefs certainly influenced my vision of politics.

Same as for me: my religion certainly and deeply influences my political ideas.

Agree?

Can't agree to a post I don't understand.

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently...

Propaganda works like a charm...

When Soviets behave badly, socialists say they were capitalists.
Socialists....trying to get them to admit reality is like nailing Jello to a wall.

Why is it that there are no Boat
People trying to sneak into Cuba?

How do you get rid of mice in a socialist country?
Put up a sign saying COLLECTIVE FARM.
Half the mice will starve.
The rest will flee.

 

[Estro Felino]

Can't agree to a post I don't understand.

I corrected. Re-read it.

 

[icehorse]

Is bridled capitalism godly?

Thinking of bridled capitalism, leaves me gruntled.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thinking of bridled capitalism, leaves me gruntled.

And me combobulated.

 

[Revoltingest]

I corrected. Re-read it.

No, I must leave now.

 

[icehorse]

OMG. I haven't read such a fundamental misunderstanding of Capitalism in hours. Read the Wealth of Nations. Buy a vowel. Get a clue.

Economic systems are another form of man made machine. Like ALL machines, economic systems require monitoring and tweaking and adjusting.

 

[icehorse]

And me combobulated.

But I suspect, others are whelmed.

 

[Stevicus]

Very thorough analysis.
It's also a matter of time. All economics scholars agree on the fact that re-adjustments in the short run and in the medium run are impossible, because it takes time.
Only in the long run there can be significant improvements, but they are not to be taken for granted.


It's the vicious cycle that scares me. Not the consequences in the short run. Because the vicious cycle implies we will never get out of it.

Vicious cycles usually end when they blow up. In the short run, Western politicians will try to coast and salvage as much as they can to try to maintain the status quo, but it will eventually break down. We're at a dead end, environmentally, where things can only get worse from here on out. Resources are dwindling in a world of 8 billion, so there will be a lot of fighting over scraps - and most probably won't survive in the long run.

There will probably be a massive reduction in population while some bastions might be secured where some semblance of life continues. That's why nationalism is gaining traction, since some people believe their best chance at survival is by forming their own security zones and keeping "undesirables" out. That's the logical result of capitalism.

 

[Estro Felino]

Economic systems are another form of man made machine. Like ALL machines, economic systems require monitoring and tweaking and adjusting.

Adam Smith used to say there was an invisible hand monitoring, tweaking, and adjusting.
Magic.
Fairy-tales applied to macroeconomics.

 

[Stevicus]

I give you a cromulent Wikipedia article about mass starvation by the Soviets.
You give me some obscure page that won't load.
Socialism....failure in every way.

It is as I said it was. The kulaks (capitalists) were the ones responsible, in more ways than one.

 

[Estro Felino]

Vicious cycles usually end when they blow up. In the short run, Western politicians will try to coast and salvage as much as they can to try to maintain the status quo, but it will eventually break down. We're at a dead end, environmentally, where things can only get worse from here on out. Resources are dwindling in a world of 8 billion, so there will be a lot of fighting over scraps - and most probably won't survive in the long run.

There will probably be a massive reduction in population while some bastions might be secured where some semblance of life continues. That's why nationalism is gaining traction, since some people believe their best chance at survival is by forming their own security zones and keeping "undesirables" out. That's the logical result of capitalism.

I swear it: when I used to watch those movies about the Amish communities, living completely isolated and self-sufficient, outside of the mainstream economic system, I was not able to empathize with their choice.
After understanding how the vicious cycle of unbridled capitalism operates, I started understanding them fully.
Who can blame them?

 

[Viker]

I would like to understand something:
if you are an atheist and believe Satan doesn't exist, why does it bother you that I use the term Satanic?



Thank you in advance.

Because people overuse the term. It means to them anything they strongly do not like and strongly do not agree with must be of the Devil.

I don't like anchovies, they are spawn of Satan!

 

[Stevicus]

I swear it: when I used to watch those movies about the Amish communities, living completely isolated and self-sufficient, outside of the mainstream economic system, I was not able to empathize with their choice.
After understanding how the vicious cycle of unbridled capitalism operates, I started understanding them fully.
Who can blame them?

Yeah, when I was growing up, I felt somewhat the same way, although I was raised in the standard suburban neighborhood with TV, radio, phones, cars - it was just the standard thing. We didn't think there was any other way to live.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not only Christians but also atheists (thinkers, mainly) have reached the awareness that the 20th century (and this 21st) have proved beyond any reasonable doubt that economic growth is a good thing. But it cannot be restless and infinite, because we are mortal beings and because we live in a finite world.
So it's like applying limitless and restless criteria on a limited, finite world.
It's absolutely contradictory: unbridled Capitalism benefits from eternal, restless and continuous growth. More people are on Earth, more customers will buy Capitalists' products, and more profit will be made.
But, the more world population grows, the more we need to increase the production of goods and services. The more we need to exploit waters, to raise farm animals, to grow plants, to cut down trees, to deplete seas.
And the more we will increase the production, the more workers we will need, so more and more workforce. More and more millions and millions of workers.
And more and more people on Earth, more and more Capitalism. It's a vicious cycle. A self-destructive vicious cycle because sooner or later all petroleum, all resources, all trees will run out.

Profit Maximization → More workers needed → Population needs to increase → More and more production to support the population growth → more and more workers → more and more population → more and more production → profit maximization

Imagine another scenario: small communities where all cooperate. There is a very limited and state-controlled capitalism. People invest and make profit for the community's sake, and not for their own personal gain. Since there is not the obsession with profit maximization, people will produce only what they need.
Less and less workers needed. Less and less births. Less and less production.

I think unbridled capitalism and profit maximization are evil concepts. That belong in minds with a very low degree of awareness.

The problem is not Capitalism, but Big Government favoritism and interference. For example, green energy has come to the forefront, not due to optimized free market forces, but due to Government interference. This favoritism and interference caused the price of oil to increase and oil companies to see record profits, due to the price inflation that it created. Socialist then blames business and not Government for the problem. This is the problem with Socialism; offers cover for bad government. In Socialism, there is way too much government interference, and little incentive for the hard work needed to optimize the economy; free ride mentality.

Think of it this way, tax money given to the US government creates a negative rate of return due to the interest that the Government needs to pay to cover their ever increasing national debt. This is the worse investment you can make. Nobody in a free market would willingly put their money in a bank that they know will charge you interest for nothing; negative rate of return. How can such inefficiency ever be expected to add up to a healthy and growing economy.

A free market would welcome all new innovation such as green energy, but it would be up to green energy to become competitive with the current forms of cheaper energy, so the consumer benefits by changing. When we add a dysfunctional Government, that gets a negative rate of return, the benefits get reversed, so families have to pay more for less; shortages and inflation.

Technology, such as computers and TV's is an example of the free market at its best. Good quality and useful products keep getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper due to competition for market share. This reflect increasing efficiency of resources, and each consumer getting more and more value for their dollar. The free market does not play favorites, but competes based on quality and price; going up and down, respectively.

Cheating the free market occurs when lobbyist from business pay politicians to interfere; stack the deck with rules that destroy free competition, such as was done with green energy. Business cannot change the laws on their own via the free market. They need Government to do the dirty work. When the doers of the dirty work lead the economy, everyone suffers except a few.

There is no longer any question that capitalism (omitting the "unbridled" for a moment) is the only economic system that can actually create wealth. In that sense, it is a very good thing, and for that reason, this atheist is a capitalist.

However, as with all things human, there are limits. Just as a family cannot continue to borrow to meet its needs forever, so can the human family not continue to "borrow" from our environment without consequences. The earth is very big, and lots and lots of lovely resources. But big is not infinite, and eventually resources run out. Use (or remove) all the trees, all the water, all the oil, all the lithium -- and then what? If mankind hopes to go on generation after generation until the sun swallows up this orb, it is going to have to learn to use its resources sustainably.

If you have a toe cut off by your lawn mower, it will heal. Won't grow back, but it will heal. Now, if you were a salamander and lost your tail to that same mower, it can grow back. But after more and more wounding, the healing ends, there's nothing more to regrow, and the organism dies. In the same way, if we wound our planet, it can heal. Remove some forest, and it can grow back. But remove too much, hurt it too much, and it will no longer be able to heal itself. And then what?

Capitalism, therefore, must behave sustainably -- it must be able to renew its sources in order to continue, or the well runs dry. But free-market, unfettered capitalism has no incentive to behave sustainably. That costs, and that cost reduces profits. And to that end, it is necessary that even capitalism be constrained -- and the only thing that can really constrain it is government.

So I agree with @Estro Felino that unbridled capitalism is bad -- but I won't say "evil" or "satanic," because it is not those things. It is not conscious, nor is it a program. Capitalism is just a tool, and like all tools, it works best (and lasts longest) when it is used properly.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The problem is not Capitalism

Agreed. It's unregulated capitalism.

The problem is not Capitalism, but Big Government favoritism and interference.

Disagree. Government is necessary to oppose robber barons from exploiting and harming people and the environment. Government is also necessary to raise taxes necessary for infrastructure and why businesses profiting from America's markets should pay substantial taxes (or duties) to participate.

green energy has come to the forefront, not due to optimized free market forces, but due to Government interference.

As just noted, government interference is mostly a good thing when governments are in the hands of progressives protecting society from human predators.

We put up solar panels and a solar water heater 11 years ago, saw our propane consumption fall from four tanks a year to one, and our electric bill fall to zero. It paid for itself in six years, and we have been getting free power since. We got no tax breaks or other government incentives, and the price of a system like ours is now half what we paid. It would be great if government funded these systems in all homes and businesses.

I recall that, back during the 70s, there were noticeable concerns about overpopulation and the long-term effects it could have on the environment, economy, and the quality of life. Yet, by the time of the Reagan era, all those concerns seemingly went away or became of lesser importance. Same thing for the energy crisis. There was a big push towards conservation and fuel-efficient cars, but then, by the 80s, all those concerns disappeared and people went back to gas-guzzlers and unlimited consumption.

Then came the rise of the moral majority and politicized religion in the States:

• "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities)
• "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
• "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth. I do believe God's word is infallible, unchanging, perfect." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'd rather believe in elves and dwarves.

That's not much different than believing in a literal Satan.

 

[Shaul]

Economic systems are another form of man made machine. Like ALL machines, economic systems require monitoring and tweaking and adjusting.

So? Capitalism doesn't claim to be perfect. It is simply the best economic system yet developed. Your "monitoring" and "tweaking" are plastic euphemisms. Too often they really mean attempts to circumvent it or attack it. Capitalism has withstood the vagaries of time and assaults by many who thought themselves wise in their own eyes. Capitalism works.

 

[Shaul]

Adam Smith used to say there was an invisible hand monitoring, tweaking, and adjusting.
Magic.
Fairy-tales applied to macroeconomics.

More silliness. You equate "unseen" with Fairy-tales[sic] or magic. As if all things unseen must be one of the other.

 

[Estro Felino]

More silliness. You equate "unseen" with Fairy-tales[sic] or magic. As if all things unseen must be one of the other.

In my opinion he was a very prideful person.
He used to think "I think that I would behave like this in this circumstance, so would all actors of the economic system: consumers, producers, investors, savers, bankers, etc...etc...".
That's the invisible hand.

Egopathy.