YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I suspect your brilliant analysis was too subtle for me.
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Unfair opinions about Islam :(
- Thread starter Deidre
- Start date
You should check out the Buddhist forums, they are exactly the same way. Hiding behind scriptures, afraid to express their own opinions for fear of of offending the gurus, which are often scripture slinging moderators or western monks.
ok I suggest western powers stay the heck out of meddling with Muslim countries, And Muslims that want to meddle stay the heck out of western countries, its not ideal, in a perfect world we would all get along, but given the current situation, going from bad to worse, its time to back off and let countries make their own decisions, Islamic countries can easily take care of ISIS if they were given a chance, just look at the current mood in Jordan, etc
Jumi
Well-Known Member
It sounds good, but that's politics. I doubt any of us here have any political power to change these things. I was never for any war in the Middle-East and neither was my country.
Je suis Moaz. Yes I think with Daesh their aggression will be their undoing.
ImaTroll
Member
if you are a woman, then it is inappropriate for you to hug a muslim man, especially if he is not your husband.
thank you everyone for your answers today...I'll come back to reply tomorrow.
This ifrom the Qur'an below, it's interesting to me, and thought it was worth sharing here. Does this mean that we should interpret the Qur'an at face value only, never allowing for potential allegory...or interpretation?
Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:7] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
This ifrom the Qur'an below, it's interesting to me, and thought it was worth sharing here. Does this mean that we should interpret the Qur'an at face value only, never allowing for potential allegory...or interpretation?
Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:7] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
That, Deidre, is a very good question.
I wish I understood enough Arabic to tell whether the translation (from Sahih International, I believe) is accurate and which assumptions and shortcuts it might have taken, because as it is it looks slightly incongrous to me.
The Skeptic's Annotated Quran has a fairly good, if short, analysis of this verse (in a nutshell, it calls it "absurd"), but I will pitch in on my own.
I colored the parts I find troublesome.
In blue, parts that are just dogmatic, and at first glance at least don't really match the available evidence (although it would perhaps be a very good thing if they did). I don't personally think it is necessarily a good thing for scripture to be specific, but that is obviously not a popular perspective among Muslims, and I don't know that they are wrong either.
In red, parts that can only make sense once we take for granted that the Quran must be both perfect and undeserving of critical reading.
In purple. parts that are inflamatory and state that disagreement is not something to be tolerated, leading to repression and violence. I assume they are part of the reason why people insist that it is obviously the Ahadith and not the Quran that may lead to disharmony among Muslims, without ever pointing out (the rather obvious fact) that the Quran is indeed fairly contradictory in its message, at least when read without appealing to compassion and critical thinking.
In pink, the part that seems reasonable, until we realize that for better or worse we need to take our lives and make our decisions. Claiming ignorance or falibity is technically correct, but does not exempt us from that need and responsibility.
In green, the part that is just an appeal to fanatic, dangerous dogmaticism.
All in all, a very disappointing verse. Were I inclined to consider the Quran genuine scripture (in the sense of God-given), I would probably give up as soon as I found this verse, unless somehow the immediate context makes it look like an obvious satire of some kind (and that is not the case). I just don't see how or why a serious, lucid, competent religious person in the 21st century could accept that verse.
Sahih International's translation:
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
Skeptic's Annotated Quran's translation:
He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
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very disappointing colored "explaination" of verse !!! In red ,In purple ...blah blah .
who made this explaination ?
do you know translation decline the beauty and meaning of origin langauge ?
I did. The translations themselves are the only part of the post that I did not write.
Even the choice of which parts to color exactly is all mine and no one else's.
I am ready to support and elaborate on my criticism at any moment.
Translations are indeed tricky in the best of circunstances, but the first translation comes from this site, which seems to be at least trying to be respectful to the original intent.
Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:7] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
Perhaps, but in this verse it seems to be in fair agreement with Sahih International's.
Edited to add: a quick google search and some reading suggests that some might find Dr. Muhsin Khan's translation preferable. To the best of my understanding it can be consulted here:
Translation of Surah Al-Imran - NobleQuran.com
and it says:
7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).
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ah , good , you critic your source translation , and explain to us how you understand it .
but you still wrong .
I will try to re-explained this verse by simple way ,and how i understand this verse in Arab in deep meaning and resume :
He is God , who sent you book , explained/cleared verses , ,and others (VERSES) are not cleared , those whom had desease in their hearts , they will ONLY followed /try to explain only non-explained/ non-cleared , verses to made problem with them , and no one know the true meaning of these verse only God , and whom had good knowlagde will believe that it's comes from God .
I guess Sahih is very close to meaning , for this moment .
I would love to be convinced that I am. It is not reassuring to know that well over a billion people see that verse as the literal word from God.
You are welcome to try and convince me that I am misunderstanding things. But I am not hopeful that you may succeed.
I am not seeing any strong or reassuring differences, unfortunately. There is also a significant translation barrier, I fear.
It may be helpful if you set the verse itself aside for a moment and just tell me in your own words why you feel I am being unfair in my interpretation of the meaning of that verse.
If you feel like pointing me out to another well-known translation, you are definitely welcome. I attempted to present Dr. Muhsin Khan's in my previous post, but you may not have seen it at first.
This is a much better translation, but still not the best, which I would think would be the King Fahd Saudi edition of the Holy Koran.
Yusuf Ali
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Its basically just clearly stating that there are basic verses with fairly obvious meaning, and allegorical verses, who's meaning is much more difficult to discern that weak minded people get distracted by trying to give them meaning, the allegorical verses come from Allah, but only Allah understands their exact meaning, And men of understanding will still say the entire book is inspired by Allah.
I don't see any confusing or damning evidence in the verse, it seems fairly straightforward, you have to be very careful about which translation you use, JUST LIKE the Bible, half of these translations we see in the West weren't even translated by devout Muslims, the same as with some modern translations of the Bible being translated by non religious academics.
Yusuf Ali
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
Its basically just clearly stating that there are basic verses with fairly obvious meaning, and allegorical verses, who's meaning is much more difficult to discern that weak minded people get distracted by trying to give them meaning, the allegorical verses come from Allah, but only Allah understands their exact meaning, And men of understanding will still say the entire book is inspired by Allah.
I don't see any confusing or damning evidence in the verse, it seems fairly straightforward, you have to be very careful about which translation you use, JUST LIKE the Bible, half of these translations we see in the West weren't even translated by devout Muslims, the same as with some modern translations of the Bible being translated by non religious academics.
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Just like the Bible, in that it is dangerous to rely on scripture over actual religious wisdom, on that much I agree.
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it's not your fault , that there is no Tafsir to Quran availble in English , so actuatly the whole blame on Muslims Scholars , whom did NOT made efforts to explain Quran (Tafsir in English) .
what availble is Enligh is just different translation , sometimes it's called tafsir , but it's not tafsir , it's just different ways of translations .
so your effort "to interpretation Quran" is missed the PURE Arabic sense , and reason/cause of down that verse "historic reference" , why and when "what for" .
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muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
What a strange thing to say .. it's straight forward enough..
It means "what it says on the tin"
ie. That verse is NOT allegorical
Theweirdtophat
Well-Known Member
I just find it strange that a lot of people demand that Muslims condemn Islamic terrorism when there are already Muslims doing that. I mean how absurd is this? ISIS has killed quite a few Muslims and fought quite a few. Jordan's already angry with them and over 3/4 of Jordan is Muslim even when it comes to other Islamic terrorist groups like Boko Haram, you have Nigeria and Chad fighting against them and most of Nigeria and Chad are Muslims. Not to mention other Muslims from America, Canada and Europe condemning Islamic terrorism.
But no, there's no Muslims that condemn Islamic terrorism, right? That's laughable. I mean with all of this going on, what more proof do you need?
But no, there's no Muslims that condemn Islamic terrorism, right? That's laughable. I mean with all of this going on, what more proof do you need?
What a strange thing to say .. it's straight forward enough..
It means "what it says on the tin"
ie. That verse is NOT allegorical
But taken literally, it needs a lot of cautious ponderation for one to take it in good faith. And that is being very generous, even all-out ethnocentric, with its interpretation.
Of course there are many Muslims condemning ISIS. Many of them claim that they are not true Muslims in so doing, though. That tends to reinforce the notion that it is a matter of correct adherence as opposed to just plain refusing dogma for dogma's sake.