United Nations to ban religion?

[URAVIP2ME]

Your interpretation of them. Is this your own interpretation or do you belong to some organization or group which also believes as you do?

To me, all genuine Christians believe as I do.

 

[Sonofason]

Oh I agree. Education, open mindedness, cultural exchange and free thought are all things that are of the worst for advancing Christian beliefs. But what you do is shelter and cage the children mentally. Personally I feel that is a bad way to go. I also think that indoctrination is child abuse so I doubt we will see eye to eye on this.

The only reason you call it indoctrination is that you don't understand that God exists, and the Bible is true, and just as children have a right to learn about physics and chemistry in our schools, they also have a right to learn about God and the historical truths contained in the Bible. You indoctrinate children with evolution, and I wouldn't mind indoctrinating them with regard to the moral principles that have been established for thousands of years. I'm just sorry that no one cared enough to teach you.

Indoctrinate simply means "brainwash" to many people. But its meaning isn't always so negative. When this verb first appeared in English in the 17th century, it simply meant "to teach"-a meaning that followed logically from its Latin root. The "doc" in the middle of indoctrinate derives from the Latin verb docēre, which also means "to teach." Other offspring of "docēre" include "docent" (referring to a college professor or a museum guide), "docile," "doctor," "doctrine," and "document." It was not until the 19th century that "indoctrinate" began to see regular use in the sense of causing someone to absorb and take on certain opinions or principles.
Definition of INDOCTRINATE

If you have bias regarding a particular subject, whether you are right or wrong, you will consider teaching to be a negative form of indoctrination. Well, that's just too bad, because we all have bias, and you have no right to push your agenda on me and my children either...yet you insist we do.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

To me, if faith healing was genuine then faith healers would be working in hospitals.
( maybe they don't work in hospitals for the same reason that psychics don't win the lotteries )
And there is Nothing in Genesis showing how long each creative day was, or even if each creative day was of the same or of differing lengths of time, but definitely Not a few-thousand-years old Earth.

Jesus did strongly believe in a literal interpretations of his beliefs when Not metaphorically speaking.
Of course, Jesus knew his parable illustrations were just that parables or illustrations and Not literal.
Jesus took the commandments as literal. Do Not steal, murder, etc.
Jesus also knew there would be a New covenant or contract coming for all nations - Jeremiah 31:31-34
Yet, 'many' come ' in Jesus' name ' and prove false as Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23
So, ALL false religious teaching will have to go.
The political will have to start ' house cleaning ' with Christendom ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only )

Hey so long as you accept reality I don't mind people being whatever religion.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

The only reason you call it indoctrination is that you don't understand that God exists, and the Bible is true, and just as children have a right to learn about physics and chemistry in our schools, they also have a right to learn about God and the historical truths contained in the Bible. You indoctrinate children with evolution, and I wouldn't mind indoctrinating them with regard to the moral principles that have been established for thousands of years. I'm just sorry that no one cared enough to teach you.

I grew up a conservative Christian home. My parents believe very much like you. I grew out of it.

Indoctrinate simply means "brainwash" to many people. But its meaning isn't always so negative. When this verb first appeared in English in the 17th century, it simply meant "to teach"-a meaning that followed logically from its Latin root. The "doc" in the middle of indoctrinate derives from the Latin verb docēre, which also means "to teach." Other offspring of "docēre" include "docent" (referring to a college professor or a museum guide), "docile," "doctor," "doctrine," and "document." It was not until the 19th century that "indoctrinate" began to see regular use in the sense of causing someone to absorb and take on certain opinions or principles.
Definition of INDOCTRINATE

If you have bias regarding a particular subject, whether you are right or wrong, you will consider teaching to be a negative form of indoctrination. Well, that's just too bad, because we all have bias, and you have no right to push your agenda on me and my children either...yet you insist we do.

There is a very clear functional difference between education and indoctrination. Do you teach your children about Islam? Do you teach your children about Buddhism? Do you ever even entertain the idea that god doesn't exist? Probably not. Forcing a belief system onto your children is indoctrination. Education means you have taught them information and allowed them to think on that information.

I agree that to many in our school system it has become somewhat of an indoctrination more to the fact that it simply gives them facts to memorize rather than really teaching them. That is a failure on the education system's part.

Do you live in the west and really feel that Christianity isn't pushed on people? Fully and really?

 

[MonkeyFire]

And you have your holy war.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hey so long as you accept reality I don't mind people being whatever religion.

Just a thought, couldn't a religious terrorist accept reality, accepting the reality that throughout history man has dominated man to man's hurt or injury as Solomon observed at Ecclesiastes 8:9.

For me, I accept the reality as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13 that many people today have a selfish distorted form of love that is out of harmony when contrasted with the definition of godly love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6.

 

[Sonofason]

"Titillations of the mind?"
Hmm. Define that.
Because I don't think God would give someone a brain only for them to use it as little more than a hat rack. Should one not explore subjects intellectually and philosophically? If yes then that sort of makes banning any book contrary to that goal.

And you probably also believe that God didn't create penises just for procreation...but I assure you He did.

"So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness." (Ephesians 4:17-19

"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:28-32)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness." (Mark 7:21-22)

There is no good reason to allow books that embrace and encourage these kinds of behaviors. What you put into your mind, is what comes out.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is a very clear functional difference between education and indoctrination. Do you teach your children about Islam? Do you teach your children about Buddhism? Do you ever even entertain the idea that god doesn't exist? Probably not. Forcing a belief system onto your children is indoctrination. Education means you have taught them information and allowed them to think on that information.
I agree that to many in our school system it has become somewhat of an indoctrination more to the fact that it simply gives them facts to memorize rather than really teaching them. That is a failure on the education system's part.
Do you live in the west and really feel that Christianity isn't pushed on people? Fully and really?

To me, all that memorizing is showing that those with good memories will advance further than others.
Yes, there are parents who use indoctrination and even coercion perhaps Not knowing any better.
However, there is No example where Jesus used indoctrination or coercion on people.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

To me, all that memorizing is showing that those with good memories will advance further than others.
Yes, there are parents who use indoctrination and even coercion perhaps Not knowing any better.
However, there is No example where Jesus used indoctrination or coercion on people.

To be fair there is no historical records of Jesus at all \/('~')\/

 

[Sonofason]

No you haven't. The atheists here bend over backwards to respect freedom of religion and whilst they criticise religion a great deal, they fundamentally support freedom of religion as a human right.

A quick search of the forums shows only two threads with "ban the bible" in the title and the second one is about it being used as a scare tactic back in 2004.

Well, you could be right...it seems perhaps you've done your homework. Well, I've heard it more than once, maybe it wasn't on this forum.

So basically in RFs 12 year history the only atheist who proposed banning the bible is me.

Well then, my apologies go out to everyone but you.



I'm feeling so cool right now. [/QUOTE]
Very cool...you win

 

[SomeRandom]

And you probably also believe that God didn't create penises just for procreation...but I assure you He did.

"So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness." (Ephesians 4:17-19

"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." (Romans 1:28-32)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness." (Mark 7:21-22)

There is no good reason to allow books that embrace and encourage these kinds of behaviors. What you put into your mind, is what comes out.

A book doesn't encourage anything. It doesn't do anything. At least if you go by the Death of the author philosophy. You as an individual get out of a book what you want. If you are looking for an excuse to justify one sort of behaviour then it really doesn't matter what book you read. You will find it yourself. But a book is not a Bible or a Qaran or the Vedas or what have you. I'm a big girl, I'm responsible for my own actions, not any book or author or whoever. Me.
A book can make me think, ponder philosophically or understand another point of view. If you purposely close yourself off from that you must not have that much confidence in your own thinking abilities or critical thinking skills.
I mean just because I read Lolita doesn't mean I can now justify Pedophilia. There are far more layers to a book than just the text or the story. Hell in Victorian age literature the story is often just used as an excuse to explore philosophical concepts. Like Aestheticism in the Picture of Dorian Gray.

 

[neologist]

I've posted this in other places and must admit it has found the strongest legs here.
Why I think it's relevant is revealed by the most cursory examination of religious interference in world affairs,

Ask yourself:
When political and commercial interests have need to assert their interests through warfare, to whom do they look to recruit cannon fodder? . . . .
Who else but the clergymen found within their bedsheets?

Then consider the passages in Revelation, chapters 17 and 18 which clearly indicate a religious entity devoured by a political entity having reached the limits of endurance - a religious entity having maintained its power by means of the lie, the singular roadblock to world peace.

World history contains the voluminous indictment. It can be only a short time until conviction and sentence.

 

[Sonofason]

I'm coming into this conversation late and with lots of pages unread but I have to ask, are you talking about banning books in the political sense or banning it within your household? Because banning if information, even if it runs contrary to your values, doesn't make that information goes away, just moves it underground where it can't be aired out and discussed. Part of defending religious freedoms means defending people's ability to write and circulate information that runs counter to your values and/or biblical values.

There are themes in books, that I just think that human beings ought not be subjected to, that they shouldn't even subject themselves too. I understand freedom and all, so I know that you are all right. This country is a great country because of the freedoms that we have. But I just see morality declining in America, and I believe it has a lot to do with the stuff we are putting into our brains through television and certain kinds of books and magazines as well. You're probably right that banning books would probably not have a very positive outcome, at least not the result I'd be hoping for.

I'd probably ban the NT if such a thing were in my power.

I understand...I get it.

It's bizarre to me how, even though you belong to the largest, most powerful religious group in your country, you think you're being persecuted. It's like a certain segment of the Christian population acts like a dangerous, threatened wild animal... but one who feels threatened by hallucinations from eating weird mushrooms, not from any real threat.

Ahhh, I probably spend too much time here with all you atheists here, and it's clouding my judgment. So, you're probably right...not much to worry about. Besides, even if the Bible were banned, it wouldn't drastically affect my life. I'd still have a Bible. I'd still have The Holy Spirit. And I'd still have my salvation. What else do I need...to try to convince you guys the benefits of faith? That'll never happen anyhow, so nothing lost and nothing gained.

Should I judge you by the wild threats I've heard from other Christians?

Probably not...point taken

 

[Sonofason]

I've posted this in other places and must admit it has found the strongest legs here.
Why I think it's relevant is revealed by the most cursory examination of religious interference in world affairs,

Ask yourself:
When political and commercial interests have need to assert their interests through warfare, to whom do they look to recruit cannon fodder? . . . .
Who else but the clergymen found within their bedsheets?

Then consider the passages in Revelation, chapters 17 and 18 which clearly indicate a religious entity devoured by a political entity having reached the limits of endurance - a religious entity having maintained its power by means of the lie, the singular roadblock to world peace.

World history contains the voluminous indictment. It can be only a short time until conviction and sentence.

And then recall how that beast is destroyed in chapter 19 because it was an evil that God simply used to destroy another evil.

 

[Sonofason]

I grew up a conservative Christian home. My parents believe very much like you. I grew out of it.

There is a very clear functional difference between education and indoctrination. Do you teach your children about Islam? Do you teach your children about Buddhism? Do you ever even entertain the idea that god doesn't exist? Probably not. Forcing a belief system onto your children is indoctrination. Education means you have taught them information and allowed them to think on that information.

I agree that to many in our school system it has become somewhat of an indoctrination more to the fact that it simply gives them facts to memorize rather than really teaching them. That is a failure on the education system's part.

Do you live in the west and really feel that Christianity isn't pushed on people? Fully and really?

Do you indoctrinate your children to be kind to their brothers and sisters? Do you allow your children to urinate on the floor? Or do you indoctrinate them into a system of social order?
Do you not desire for your children to go to heaven? If you don't, then don't teach them anything about God, and they won't know anything about God.

Believe me, if children learn about God, and if they read the Bible, they will have a lot of questions, and then you can teach them. But if you do not teach them, it's not very likely that they're gonna just start teaching themselves. It happens, but far fewer people will receive forgiveness, especially those parents who know God exists, but have lacked all intention to prevent their children from being eternally separated from God's presence.

 

[Kirran]

Do you indoctrinate your children to be kind to their brothers and sisters? Do you allow your children to urinate on the floor? Or do you indoctrinate them into a system of social order?
Do you not desire for your children to go to heaven? If you don't, then don't teach them anything about God, and they won't know anything about God.

Believe me, if children learn about God, and if they read the Bible, they will have a lot of questions, and then you can teach them. But if you do not teach them, it's not very likely that they're gonna just start teaching themselves. It happens, but far fewer people will receive forgiveness, especially those parents who know God exists, but have lacked all intention to prevent their children from being eternally separated from God's presence.

If one of your children became an atheist, after the shock and initial entreaties to return had settled down, how would you relate to them do you think? Would your relationship be significantly affected?

I have to some extent gone through such a process in my own family.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Do you indoctrinate your children to be kind to their brothers and sisters? Do you allow your children to urinate on the floor? Or do you indoctrinate them into a system of social order?
Do you not desire for your children to go to heaven? If you don't, then don't teach them anything about God, and they won't know anything about God.

There are valid reasons for not having your children urinate on the floor and to show general human respect to siblnigs. That is not indoctrination to a belief system.

I don't believe there is a god so therefore I don't believe in a heaven. If I ever have children I plan on letting them know that religions are out there and answering questions whenever I can. And if I can't I have no problem letting them talk to those who are more knowledgeable than I am. They will come into their own and make their own decisions when they are old enough.

Believe me, if children learn about God, and if they read the Bible, they will have a lot of questions, and then you can teach them. But if you do not teach them, it's not very likely that they're gonna just start teaching themselves. It happens, but far fewer people will receive forgiveness, especially those parents who know God exists, but have lacked all intention to prevent their children from being eternally separated from God's presence.

I would gurantee I can teach them the answer to questions about the bible as good as any christian. I was raised in it. I have read the bible cover to cover twice with penty of other readings that wasn't in order. I am less versed in Islam but I am more versed in Buddhism, Judaism and paganism. If I ever have children I will teach them the generals of all of them. Or at least in so much as they exist. I won't be telling them that any of these religions are correct. I also won't tell them that there is no god.

 

[Sonofason]

If one of your children became an atheist, after the shock and initial entreaties to return had settled down, how would you relate to them do you think? Would your relationship be significantly affected?

I have to some extent gone through such a process in my own family.

It would depend on how far they went. Sometimes you have to cut your losses. I'd always love my children, but I could imagine circumstances where even my own children would not be welcome in my house. So the answer is, it is a matter of degree and circumstance.

 

[Sonofason]

There are valid reasons for not having your children urinate on the floor and to show general human respect to siblnigs. That is not indoctrination to a belief system.

I don't believe there is a god so therefore I don't believe in a heaven. If I ever have children I plan on letting them know that religions are out there and answering questions whenever I can. And if I can't I have no problem letting them talk to those who are more knowledgeable than I am. They will come into their own and make their own decisions when they are old enough.

I would gurantee I can teach them the answer to questions about the bible as good as any christian. I was raised in it. I have read the bible cover to cover twice with penty of other readings that wasn't in order. I am less versed in Islam but I am more versed in Buddhism, Judaism and paganism. If I ever have children I will teach them the generals of all of them. Or at least in so much as they exist. I won't be telling them that any of these religions are correct. I also won't tell them that there is no god.

You know, I really don't care what you think is valid. I care what I think is valid. And there are valid reasons to believe in God and read your Bible. And there are valid reasons to prevent people from urinating on the floor. So lets continue indoctrinating the people who don't understand, so that they do what we know they ought to do.

The purpose of the Bible is to make believers. I'm quite sure you are incapable of doing that. Atheists can't disciple anyone to faith in God.

Do you believe in God?

 

[Laika]

Well, you could be right...it seems perhaps you've done your homework. Well, I've heard it more than once, maybe it wasn't on this forum.

A quick search of the forums shows only two threads with "ban the bible" in the title and the second one is about it being used as a scare tactic back in 2004.

Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?

Banning the Bible

So basically in RFs 12 year history the only atheist who proposed banning the bible is me.
Well then, my apologies go out to everyone but you.



I'm feeling so cool right now.
Very cool...you win

No worries mate.