Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
This question is only asked from a position of privilege. Others desire salvation because they lack this privilege. The privileged seek salvation on behalf of the marginalized who desire it.
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universal salvation makes no sense without reincarnation
- Thread starter Starlight
- Start date
People are not punished for what God intended, they are punished for their won wrongdoings, if they are punished.
I don't think universal salvation, nor reincarnation are Biblical teaching.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
It's only a problem if you assume that god is loving. That's only an assertion as far as I can see. It makes equal sense to suggest that we are here to learn to be more evil.
Yokefellow
Active Member
You understand the ultimate meaning of Salvation more than most. Good job.
My thoughts aside from the fact that this requires free-will which is yet to be demonstrated and reincarnation which is yet to be demonstrated what is the point of reincarnation if hell is permanent? Getting your life cycle repeated in hell is pretty pointless.
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I actually think it is demonstrated, I'd need to do more research further to be sure. But, basically the study of human behavior and choices that are made are preditcable, but, they are predictably-unpredictable. That's why statistical analysis of human behavior tends to be in the shape of a bell-curve. The entire branch of statistics in mathematics is based on locating and indentifying the majority which is predicatble and ... drumroll... the outliers.
The simple fact that outliers exist at the pointy edges of the bell-curve should be strong evidence that demonstrates free-will. Those outliers are not following the trend. And then one can consider the others which are in the sub-30% range ( 15% on either side of the bell-curve ). Aren't those people executing free-will as well?
One can argue, that these outliers were infact pre-determined. But that's not what the statistical analysis shows. Those outliers at the pointy end of the bell-curve are not exhibiting any specific choice. They are simply the exclusions who are not followng the trend in any number of possible ways. The outliers on the pointy edges of the bell curve are describing unpredictable behavior.
When those "other possible ways" are isolated and statistically analyzed, I would expect the same bell curve would be produced where there are outliers, and those outliers are behaving in unpredictable ways compared to the majority.
So, big picture, zoomming out, there is a predetermined-unpredictability. A predictable-unpredictability in human beehavior. Pre-determined free-will.
This is true. But we also need karma and its results across lifetimes. Otherwise, there is no true justice.
For all your actions in this life, you will suffer (or enjoy) effects in future lifetimes proportional to the suffering (or joy) you may have caused to others in this lifetime. This is true justice.
Basically I agree. Years ago I had a chain of logic which went something like. "if there is a loving God, then love must rule. If love rules then a permanent punishment can't exist. If love rules, then people must be given the chance to learn and grow. " and so forth.
I don't think it's necessarily simple. I once heard that someone was a dedicated veterinarian because he was balancing a live of cruelty to animals. This does not mean of course that all vets were cruel because life is very complex, but that for this one person relieving suffering was balancing inflicting suffering.
It isn't.
Punishment as a concept comes from the days when people were mostly motivated by hope and fear. We've left the "spare the rod and spoil the child" era, or at least quite a few of us have left that era. People review their mistakes and are given another chance to apply the learning in a new body.
Oh, good.
Unfettered
A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
I'm not sure how you're using the word "reincarnation," but I agree with the general idea—salvation is pointless without life continuing beyond mortality.
Outliers made their choices in accordance with their nature.
Human nature exists on a bell curve with outliers as well so outliers are what we would in fact expect to see if there were no free will.
For example take brain development. Most people's brain development falls somewhere about the middle then you have your outliers.
The same is true for environmental influences as well in my view.
McBell
Unbound
How?
I mean, if there is no free will, then they made no choices, right?
You appear to be defining free will as the freedom to choose without external constraints.
I am defining free will as the ability to make choices without internal constraints.
McBell
Unbound
You will need to define the difference.
Perhaps an example will help.
If someone holds a gun to your head and says put the money in the bag you choose to put the money in the bag because you don't want to loose your life. In a sense the gun is an external constraint.
But internal constraints are things like brain form and brain chemistry which dictate how we process environmental inputs from the senses to produce outputs (choices).
Things like brain tumours, brain injuries, brain surgery and chemical imbalances in the brain all effect how we behave, and our behaviour is simply a product of the choices being made by our brains.
So as I see it we are either making choices in accordance with the hardware of our brain, or we are making choices at random. A random choice is just received by the product of chance and our brains are a product received by our genetic make-up and the like.
You don't choose what type of brain you have as far as I'm aware, otherwise I would have chosen the brain of polymath257 or subductionzone for example.
If that was clear as mud perhaps a talk from the expert will clarify;
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
...with their nature which is to execute a free will choice that is not predictable.
I completely disagree. The outliers are behaving in ways that one would expect if there is freewill. If there was no free-will they would not be outliers. They would be predictable. When their behavior is at the pointy ends of the bell curve, that means their behavior is not predictable. Not predictable, is consistent with freewill. It is not consistent with no-free-will.
However, it is able to be predicted that they will be unpredictable. That means that free-will was predetermined. The outliers are, like I said: predictably-unpredictable. IOW pre-determined to have free-will.
The best model, I think for looking at the free-will question beyond , ya know ,the entire branch of statistics in mathematics is called , the 4 tendancies model. It's slightly conntroversial, but it does have some scientific support for it. Here are a few links for you. The first one establishes the scientific basis for trusting the 4 tendancies model, but you need to get a little over half way through the articlee to get to that part. The first part iss the critique, and then after that they show that this critique isn't entirely valid. The second one describes the rebel and questioner tendancies, and those are the ones who are most often executing their free-will.
Science Supports the Usefulness of Knowing How to Respond to Expectations
Contrary to claims that the Four Tendencies are unscientific, there is scientific support for the four personality types and why knowing your type is useful.
Four Personality Types: Which One Are You? | Gretchen Rubin
I love to identify categories. Abstainers/moderators. Leopards/alchemists. Radiators/drains. And I now I can't stop thinking about these four categories.
gretchenrubin.com
So what? The if the "nature" produces free-will choices, it's still free-will.
It's still unpredictable choices being made by individuals, which is... free-will.