Universal Salvation

[sparc872]

When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire; punishing finite sins for infinite duration. I could never wrap my head around that. It just didn't make sense to me.

So for those out there who believe in eternal damnation/salvation, I am asking you why you believe this and how you make it fit into your understanding of who God is.

For those out there who believe in Universal Salvation, I am asking you what scriptural evidence you have to back it up.

For everybody else, I am asking for your input on the belief of eternal damnation and what your opinions are.

Thanks a lot everybody

 

[Mike182]

interesting question!

i think the idea is that (from a Christian perspective) with the second coming, everyone will convert, confess their sins, and be reunited with God - thus no one need suffer damnation

 

[onmybelief]

I do not believe Hell to be an eternal punishment. This is because of the contradictions the Biblical Canon has and at least one other book that is not in the Bible. The title eludes me right now but in it the writer posed the same question to Jesus Christ. Christ responded that those he was going to Hell... they were not going to stay there forever. Sometime in the future they all would be released. This book was not included, I believe, because if people knew they were going to get out of Hell anyway they would just sin and sin. (What would be the point of not sinning if we were getting out anyway?)

 

[Ody]

(What would be the point of not sinning if we were getting out anyway?)

Less time in extreme pain....its not that hard to think of...

 

[Valjean]

Some of us don't view Reality to be the hazardous place imagined by Christianity. We see no imminent danger looming that we need to be salved from.

There are hundreds of religions with hundreds of afterlife doctrines, to say nothing of the philosophical speculation on the subject and the description of the universe offered by physics.

The view of man as a kind of crop or livestock that will be culled when mature and the defective incinerated is only one of many hypotheses.

Personally, I think the theology of a group of middle-eastern, nomadic goatherds living several thousand years ago is given way more weight than it merits.

 

[lunamoth]

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.
13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.
17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.
"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.
21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[b]'
22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.
25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'
28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!' 31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' " (Luke 15, NIV)

lunamoth

PS Yes, I think He made us all, loves us all, wants us all, and in the end will receive us all.

 

[Quiddity]

To give just one example that will hopefully be sufficient in and of itself, consider the judgment scene of Matthew 25:31-46. Jesus Himself says to the damned:

"Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (25:4-11).

Matthew continues by summarizing:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (25:46)

Ok, so that’s the scriptural evidence that is difficult to interpret away in my opinion.

On a philosophical level it certainly is difficult to comprehend, like many other things of God. But if I let a lack of an answer bother me, I certainly wouldn’t be Christian. My faith allows for trust in God, I’m sure he knows what he is doing.

~Victor

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

For everybody else, I am asking for your input on the belief of eternal damnation and what your opinions are.

Odd, I can barely imagine believing such a thing. Sort of related was something that happened in my first year at my Christian Primary School. My mother had probably taught me something to do with Universal Salvation because when one of the teachers expressed something along the lines of there being a devil that was forever condemned, and those who were not 'something' (I can't remember) were also forever condemned, I had such a strong reaction against it I considered the teachers at that school crazy when it came to God. I just couldn't bear the thought of there being anyone or anything that was not allowed the chance to make amends. If there were things that felt that was right, then they were obviously very disturbed (i.e. like those teachers). Subsequently I can't remember anything the teachers said concerning religion and Christianity that made any impression on me afterwards. Instead, all throughout my time at that school I had an affinity to different types of imaginary serpent spirits that I would draw all the time. An unspoken belief of mine was that they were trying to help the things that could not forgive, or were evil, how to get better. A complete reversal of the ususal Christian symbolism of the serpent!

Childhood is strange.

 

[Quiddity]

Found this a good read and thought I'd share.

By: Peter Kreeft
The hell with hell! says the modern mind. Of all Christianity's teachings, hell is certainly the least popular. Non-Christians ignore it, weak Christians excuse it, and anti-Christians attack it.
Some, like Bertrand Russell in his famous essay "Why I Am Not a Christian", argue that because Jesus clearly taught it, he was not a good moral teacher. (Russell's essay, by the way, makes fine devotional reading for a Christian. My college roommate was about to lose his faith until he read it; he said to me, "If those are the arguments against Christianity, I'd better be a Christian.")
Why do we believe there's a hell? Not because we're vindictive. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Why, then? Simply because we've been told, by Christ himself. There's a popular fallacy that Jesus spoke only comforting words and that the fear of hell began with Saint Paul. The textual truth is the opposite: Jesus uttered many "hell fire and damnation" sermons, while nearly all the passages that offer any hope to the universalist (who believe all men will be saved in the end) are from Paul.
Fear of hell is not a base motive. As George MacDonald says, "As long as there are wild beasts about, it is better to be afraid than secure. "God's graciousness accepts even the "low" motive of fear of hell for salvation if that's the best we can muster. His arms are open to all prodigals. He is not high-minded, like some of his detractors. All's fair in love and war. And life is both.
Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven. And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).
Hell and heaven make life serious. Heaven without hell removes the bite from life's drama. C. S. Lewis once said that he never met a single person who had a lively faith in heaven without a similar belief in hell. The height of the mountain is measured by the depth of the valley, the greatness of salvation by the awfulness of the thing we're saved from.
What is hell? The popular image of demons gleefully poking pitchforks into unrepentant posteriors misses the point of the biblical image of fire. Fire destroys. Gehenna, the word Jesus used for hell, was the valley outside Jerusalem that the Jews used for the perpetual burning of garbage because it had been desecrated by heathen tribes who used it for human sacrifice. In hell you make an eternal ash of yourself. Hell is not eternal life with torture but something far worse: eternal dying. What goes to hell, said C. S. Lewis, is "not a man, but remains".

 

[Quiddity]

<continued>
The images for hell in Scripture are horrible, but they're only symbols. The thing symbolized is not less horrible than the symbols, but more. Spiritual fire is worse than material fire; spiritual death is worse than physical death. The pain of loss—the loss of God, who is the source of all joy—is infinitely more horrible than any torture could ever be. All who know God and his joy understand that. Saints do not need to be threatened with fire, only with loss. "All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it—or else that it was within your grasp and you have lost it forever" (C. S. Lewis).
Jesus does not tell us much detail about hell. He tells us that it exists, that it's horrible, that any man can go there. Judas seems to be one, for Jesus says of him, "It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." If no one goes to hell, it would seem to be inexcusable for Jesus to give us so many fearful warnings about it. But he does not give us population statistics. To his disciples' question "Are many saved?" he does not answer with estimates but with a forceful appeal to the will: "Strive to enter in."
Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don't get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But "few" here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too "few". The most important question about hell, as about heaven, is the practical one: What roads lead there? They are interior, of course. In fact, heaven and hell may be the very same objective place—namely God's love, experienced oppositely by opposite souls, just as the same opera or rock concert can be heavenly for you and hellish for the reluctant guest at your side. The fires of hell maybe made of the very love of God, experienced as torture by those who hate him: the very light of God's truth, hated and fled from in vain by those who love darkness. Imagine a man in hell—no, a ghost—endlessly chasing his own shadow, as the light of God shines endlessly behind him. If he would only turn and face the light, he would be saved. But he refuses to—forever. Just as we can attain heaven by implicit as well as explicit faith ("Saint Socrates, pray for us," says Erasmus), so hell too can be reached without explicit rebellion. This is the terrible—and terribly needed—truth taught by C. S. Lewis in The Great Divorce and Charles Williams in Descent into Hell. We can drift, slide, even snooze comfortably into hell. All God's messengers, the prophets, say so.
We desperately need to hear this truth about hell again, simply out of honesty, because it is there. And also out of compassion. For when an abyss looms ahead, the least compassionate thing to tell the traveler is "peace, peace, when there is no peace". Out of love for god and man, let us tell the truth about hell!
Sure, we'll be mocked as vindictive, manipulative, or fundamentalist. Let it be so. Sometimes it seems that we're more afraid of sharing our Lord's holy unrespectability than of hell itself. It's a small price to pay for the salvation of a single infinitely precious soul. And that is the business we're supposed to be in.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

The way I see it, God is like a father who loves His children. But He expects His children to obey Him. If they do not, He will punish them.

I know that may seem harsh. But God has laid down the law. It's out there for anyone who wants to follow it. And if you don't, well, you're funeral.

Honestly, I don't see why this concept is so hard to grasp. God loves us, which is why He gave us the Bible. But if we don't follow it, that's us throwing away happiness with both hands. We have to follow him if we wish to be rewarded some day.

 

[Green Gaia]

I just can't wrap my head around the idea of eternal damnation or salvation. It just doesn't make sense with the way I see the world. I am, however open to the possibilty that something else happens after this life. But it's just that; something else and has nothing to do with this lifetime.

 

[Katzpur]

When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire; punishing finite sins for infinite duration. I could never wrap my head around that. It just didn't make sense to me.

So for those out there who believe in eternal damnation/salvation, I am asking you why you believe this and how you make it fit into your understanding of who God is.

For those out there who believe in Universal Salvation, I am asking you what scriptural evidence you have to back it up.

For everybody else, I am asking for your input on the belief of eternal damnation and what your opinions are.

Thanks a lot everybody

I don't believe in universal salvation, but I believe that it will be only a tiny minority who will be damned. These will be those who come to know God and to fully understand who He is, would nevertheless prefer to live throughout eternity as far away from His glory as conceivably possible. I do not believe that being a non-Christian or even an atheist is enough to keep a person from receiving at least a portion of the eternal glory God has in store for His children.

 

[Katzpur]

I do not believe Hell to be an eternal punishment. This is because of the contradictions the Biblical Canon has and at least one other book that is not in the Bible. The title eludes me right now but in it the writer posed the same question to Jesus Christ. Christ responded that those he was going to Hell... they were not going to stay there forever. Sometime in the future they all would be released. This book was not included, I believe, because if people knew they were going to get out of Hell anyway they would just sin and sin. (What would be the point of not sinning if we were getting out anyway?)

This would be more or less in line with LDS doctrine. If you remember the book you were referring to, I'd be interested in knowing what it is.

 

[Green Gaia]

The way I see it, God is like a father who loves His children. But He expects His children to obey Him. If they do not, He will punish them.

I love my children and yes, I punish my kids when they misbehave, but I don't throw them into a lake of fire to burn for messing up. That is just incomprehensible to me.

 

[Quiddity]

I love my children and yes, I punish my kids when they misbehave, but I don't throw them into a lake of fire to burn for messing up. That is just incomprehensible to me.

That is of course if you take the fire as literal.

 

[Katzpur]

Honestly, I don't see why this concept is so hard to grasp. God loves us, which is why He gave us the Bible. But if we don't follow it, that's us throwing away happiness with both hands. We have to follow him if we wish to be rewarded some day.

Well, let me see if I can explain it then, Christiangirl... Not everyone who has ever lived has even heard of Jesus Christ or knew what the Bible was. Billions of good people were not as fortunate as you are. They could hardly have thrown something away which they never had.

 

[Quiddity]

Well, let me see if I can explain it then, Christiangirl... Not everyone who has ever lived has even heard of Jesus Christ or knew what the Bible was. Billions of good people were not as fortunate as you are. They could hardly have thrown something away which they never had.

Bravo para el gato ermoso...:bounce

 

[Green Gaia]

We have to follow him if we wish to be rewarded some day.

So it's all about reward?

Something I try to teach my kids is that they should do the right thing, i.e. telling the truth, not because if they don't they will get into trouble or that if they do they will be rewarded, but they should do it simply because it is the right thing to do.

But hey, that's just me.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I love my children and yes, I punish my kids when they misbehave, but I don't throw them into a lake of fire to burn for messing up. That is just incomprehensible to me.

Ok, ok, maybe the analogy was bad, but God says in the Bible that only those who follow his commands will be saved. There's no way to get around it. To be in Heaven, we must follow God. Period. End of story.

It just doesn't make sense with the way I see the world.

May I point out that just because it doesn't click with the way you see things doesn't make it untrue.