Universal Salvation

[Green Gaia]

That is of course if you take the fire as literal.

I've found that most who use the rhetoric of damnation/salvation do take it as literal. But you're right, not everyone does.

 

[Quiddity]

I've found that most who use the rhetoric of damnation/salvation do take it as literal. But you're right, not everyone does.

Oh I believe in hell alright, just think the least of your worries is the fire.

 

[Katzpur]

God says in the Bible that only those who follow his commands will be saved. There's no way to get around it. To be in Heaven, we must follow God. Period. End of story.

End of story? Sure, because you're one of the lucky ones. I'm curious as to why you think it worked out this way for you. Why do you believe God loves you more than he does the person who never had the opportunity to "follow His commands" because they never knew about His commands?

 

[Green Gaia]

May I point out that just because it doesn't click with the way you see things doesn't make it untrue.

And just because some people interpret a 2000 year old book a certain way, a book that has been translated over and over again doesn't make it true either.

Besides, I don't go for scare tactics.

 

[d.]

The hell with hell! says the modern mind.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]according to [SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]these statistics,[/FONT][/SIZE] a big chunk ( 54%, 73%, 85%) of the american population believe that hell is very real. (interestingly, considerably less believe they have a chance of ending up there.)

Hell follows from two other doctrines: heaven and free will. If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven. And if there is free will, we can act on it and abuse it. Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven (as does Western secularism) or free will (as does Eastern pantheism).

some flawed logic here. "If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven." sure. but then he goes on "Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven..."

exactly what eastern pantheism denies free will, btw?

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Victor if I take Hell to be a metaphor for separation from the spiritual heart then that article you posted by Paul Kreeft has a message that makes sense to me: there is a real danger, and its a danger I can recognise. Hell as an actual place however, a place in some afterlife; well it comes across as too strange for someone like me to take seriously.

Honestly, I don't see why this concept is so hard to grasp. God loves us, which is why He gave us the Bible. But if we don't follow it, that's us throwing away happiness with both hands. We have to follow him if we wish to be rewarded some day.

If someone isn't brought up to believe that interpretation of the Bible, or even Christianity, then a Christian Hell is hard to grasp and accept.

 

[Quiddity]

Ok, ok, maybe the analogy was bad, but God says in the Bible that only those who follow his commands will be saved. There's no way to get around it. To be in Heaven, we must follow God. Period. End of story.

If you speak of 'normative means' (those who are Christian and understand the difference), I agree. But that is certainly not something I would use against a Buddhist who is trying his/her best to do what is right in his own mind.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Well, let me see if I can explain it then, Christiangirl... Not everyone who has ever lived has even heard of Jesus Christ or knew what the Bible was. Billions of good people were not as fortunate as you are. They could hardly have thrown something away which they never had.

Which makes our job all the more important. We must teach others. If someone never knew, well, I'm really sorry. But the Bible says you must believe. It makes no exceptions, and I don't think we can just assume that God will make one.

So it's all about reward?

Don't you hope to be rewarded by going to Heaven? I know that it's much preferable to Hell. If you were asking "am I Christian just to get to Heaven" then the answer is no. I am a Christians because I want to serve God. He loves me.

 

[Quiddity]

according to [SIZE=-1][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]these statistics,[/FONT][/SIZE] a big chunk ( 54%, 73%, 85%) of the american population believe that hell is very real. (interestingly, considerably less believe they have a chance of ending up there.)

The "american" gave it away for me...

some flawed logic here. "If there is a heaven, there can be a not-heaven." sure. but then he goes on "Those who deny hell must also deny either heaven..."

Oh this get's into a whole other can of worms that is even more troublesame then there is a hell.

exactly what eastern pantheism denies free will, btw?

Beats me, why you ask?

 

[Booko]

When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire; punishing finite sins for infinite duration. I could never wrap my head around that. It just didn't make sense to me.

Yeah, I had the same problem.

For those out there who believe in Universal Salvation, I am asking you what scriptural evidence you have to back it up.

Um, did you mean Biblical evidence or Scriptural as in anyone's will do?

It does rather make a difference.

 

[lunamoth]

Besides, I don't go for scare tactics.

Exactly.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

exactly what eastern pantheism denies free will, btw?

I'm guessing this comes, albeit mistakenly, from things like Buddhism's concept of 'no-independent-arising'. It might be a response to Tao-Chia type thinking as expressed by Wei Wu Wei (he didn't believe in free will or determinism as having any validity, no object-subject distinction in the non-dual mind).

 

[Quiddity]

Victor if I take Hell to be a metaphor for separation from the spiritual heart then that article you posted by Paul Kreeft has a message that makes sense to me: there is a real danger, and its a danger I can recognise. Hell as an actual place however, a place in some afterlife; well it comes across as too strange for someone like me to take seriously.

I didn't take my interpretaion of Hell as a metaphor. I think it is very real.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Why do you believe God loves you more than he does the person who never had the opportunity to "follow His commands" because they never knew about His commands?

He loves them just the same. Just like he loves the ones who knew him and turned away. I just believe that you must believe in Him to be saved. That's what he tell his. You are dealing entirely in guesswork and assumptions, and I am dealing only in what I read in my Bible.

If someone isn't brought up to believe that interpretation of the Bible, or even Christianity, then a Christian Hell is hard to grasp and accept.

But it certainly can, and has been, done. I have met people who were not brought up in Christianity, and they can grasp and understand the concept of Hell. Those who have been converted have very, very strong faith.

 

[SoyLeche]

Which makes our job all the more important. We must teach others. If someone never knew, well, I'm really sorry. But the Bible says you must believe. It makes no exceptions, and I don't think we can just assume that God will make one.



Don't you hope to be rewarded by going to Heaven? I know that it's much preferable to Hell. If you were asking "am I Christian just to get to Heaven" then the answer is no. I am a Christians because I want to serve God. He loves me.

So, too bad for the little kid that grew up in the middle of the Amazon Rain Forest 150 years ago, huh. If that's the case, God's a jerk. Good thing I don't believe that about Him.

 

[d.]

So it's all about reward?

Something I try to teach my kids is that they should do the right thing, i.e. telling the truth, not because if they don't they will get into trouble or that if they do they will be rewarded, but they should do it simply because it is the right thing to do.

because you're a modern, sensible parent. thank god for (post-?)modern times.

back in the day when the bible was written, the norm for parenthood was very different as you probably know - something that i personally can't help but see in the biblical depiction of 'the lord, our father'.

 

[Quiddity]

Besides, I don't go for scare tactics.

What if that is what works for some?
I mean you and I are both parents and it would be nice if all we had to do was talk kindly and they would listen. But we don't, do we? We say BOOOOOOOOO, and sometimes it works.

 

[Green Gaia]

Don't you hope to be rewarded by going to Heaven?

I think I already stated that I do not believe in places of damnation or salvation. So I can't answer that. I do know that what is important is this life. Our incentive should be, not some possible reward after we die, but ro live a good and productive life that will result in a more sane, peaceful, and just world than the one we have at present, and to pass on a better world to succeeding generations.

I know that it's much preferable to Hell.

How do you know beyond what someone else has told you?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

So, too bad for the little kid that grew up in the middle of the Amazon Rain Forest 150 years ago, huh. If that's the case, God's a jerk. Good thing I don't believe that about Him.

If you don't believe that God's real, how could you believe he's a jerk.......???

 

[d.]

wow, this thread is moving fast.

if I take Hell to be a metaphor for separation from the spiritual heart

"What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love"

- fjodor dostojevskij