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Universal Salvation

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Abram said:
Is not a atheist someone who knows of God but refuses to believe?
I’m not 100% sure to what extent we choose to believe or disbelieve. Case in point: I personally know a woman who was raised in under communism. She was a pediatrician where she lived. A number of years ago, she was with a group of doctors from her country. They were in Germany on some sort of business. She was able, at one point, to slip away from the group and to keep from being found. Ultimately, she escaped, met the man who is now her husband, and moved to England with him. I remember clearly something she once told my mother. She said, “When I have a very sick child’s life in my hands, I want so much for there to be a God. I want so much to be able to ask for help from someone greater than myself. I just can’t believe He’s there.” This woman knew of God, but she had been raised to believe He didn’t exist. She even wanted to believe, but for some reason she just didn’t seem to be able to. I feel, on the other hand, that I was born believing in God. I had to learn about Jesus Christ. I had to learn about my LDS faith. But I truly feel as if I knew God was there from the first breath I took. My belief in Him is part of who I am, and there is absolutely nothing I can think of that would convince me He didn’t exist. I believe there are some atheists (not all, but some) who are like this woman I know. It’s not that they have chosen to disbelieve, but that they simply can’t do it. I don’t know why this is.

As you probably know, the Latter-day Saints believe that by the time each of us stands before God to be judged, He will have provided us each with an equal opportunity to come to know both Him, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. For many of us, that opportunity comes as a part of this life. But for others, the opportunity may not come until they have died. During the time between death and resurrection and the final judgment, those who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ will be taught by those who have already accepted the truth. If you were a young man living in Iraq today, the opportunity to really understand Christianity would be next to non-existent. If you’d grown up in 4th century China, you would almost certainly never have heard the name Jesus Christ spoken in your lifetime. If you were the woman I mentioned previously, the culture in which you were raised would have made believing very difficult. We Latter-day Saints believe that God wants all of us to return to His presence someday and will make sure that all of these barriers to our understanding will be removed before it is too late.

How do you explain the verse in Matthew 7:13 where he speaks of the narrow gate? In fact I think all 4 gospels say the same thing.
Matthew 7:13-14 states, “
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”


Before I comment on my belief, I would ask you to consider 1 Corinthians 15:22, in which we read, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

In Matthew 7:13-14, we are told that there will be few who find the way to life. In 1 Corinthians 15:22, we are told that, because of the Atonement of Christ, all will again live. This, from the standpoint of a non-believer, is a perfect example of how the Bible contradicts itself. I’m not sure how you would explain the apparent discrepancy between what these two passages say. From an LDS perspective, Matthew is speaking of the fulness of salvation, also known as Exaltation or Eternal Life in the Celestial Kingdom. It would be entirely accurate to say that a relative few will attain the highest glory God has offered to mankind. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians speaks of the unconditional resurrection of every person who has ever lived on this earth. We believe that most of these individuals will ultimately receive at least a portion of the glorious reward God has in store for us. Some, because of their obedience and faithfulness, will receive a higher degree of glory than others.


Also, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What do you think this means, Abram? To me it means that God expects more of us than mere lip service. Declaring that we believe in Christ is not enough. We are expected to demonstrate our faith in Him through our faithfulness to Him. Like James says, “Faith without works is dead.” We are not saved by our works, but we are rewarded for them. They constitute a living faith, and it is by grace through a living faith in Christ that we are saved.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Thank you for posting the story of your friend, katz...........her yearning for belief is similar to my own yearning when I identified myself as a Christian.



I did not have any problems whatsoever following the steps of Christ back then, but to believe that he was the only way to salvation? I tried..........I tried so much and prayed fervently to believe, but I just couldn't. Even now, when I try to accept this doctrine, I feel like a fraud. I just can't believe it, no matter how much I could have wanted back then or how much I would want to now.




I know that I am not the only one who feels this way. It saddened me to hear others accuse non-believers of having hardened hearts, of simply not believing because of pride or whatever wave-of-the-hand excuse.............I prayed and cried and prayed and cried and had such a fear of my own existence in hell because of how none of it ever made sense to me. :(




And all this despite being raised in a Catholic family where God, Jesus, and the church were such integral parts of my life for so long. I'm thankful for all the good that it provided, despite the appearance that I simply rejected Christ (I simply can't accept that Christ is the only way to an eternal salvation and that I would have any sense of peace in heaven knowing that others are burning and suffering forever - that very idea always pained me to no end in prayer/meditation on the Gospels).



I've never done *this* when hearing "Jesus is the only way" ------------> :ignore:




I've always tried to understand it and accept it as a reality, but have never succeeded in witnessing peace, joy, and security with it. The "Jesus is the only way" kind of teaching hurts my heart and sees me in states of paranoia when I meditate on this and allow it to be the reality in my mind.




:sorry1:




Peace,
Mystic
 

coldice013

New Member
MysticSang'ha said:
And all this despite being raised in a Catholic family where God, Jesus, and the church were such integral parts of my life for so long. I'm thankful for all the good that it provided, despite the appearance that I simply rejected Christ (I simply can't accept that Christ is the only way to an eternal salvation and that I would have any sense of peace in heaven knowing that others are burning and suffering forever - that very idea always pained me to no end in prayer/meditation on the Gospels).

I've never done *this* when hearing "Jesus is the only way" ------------> :ignore:

I've always tried to understand it and accept it as a reality, but have never succeeded in witnessing peace, joy, and security with it. The "Jesus is the only way" kind of teaching hurts my heart and sees me in states of paranoia when I meditate on this and allow it to be the reality in my mind.


Peace,
Mystic

I would have the same problem as you do, with the idea of someone burning in hell forever. I must ask this question, why is it that you would think that a loving God could do such a thing as to send an individual once dead to hell to burn forever. It is found no where in the scriptures that once dead you either go to heaven or hell. This to me is what the devil wants all christians to believe about our loving God, who is not so loving but ruthless.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe that when we die and go to the grave, we will be there till Jesus comes the Second Time, he wakes us up and gives us our just reward.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If you see it the way I do, you would have no problem with "Jesus as the only way" to salvation.

God Bless, His Coming Is Soon.
 

Mykola

Member
sparc872 said:
When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire;

Everyone was and is from time to time, sparc...

Yet, have you studied this issue thoroughly, or have you just left the question unhandled?

Your concern seems to stem from basic misunderstanding of the nature of God and of human nature. Let's proceed...

sparc872 said:
punishing finite sins for infinite duration.

First of all, every sin is a sin against God - infinite God - and transgression of His commands is infinitely sinful.

sparc872 said:
So for those out there who believe in eternal damnation/salvation, I am asking you why you believe this and how you make it fit into your understanding of who God is.

Very shortly, I see it like this: God is inviting us to be with Him - here and now, then forever. People are free to decide for themselves whether they want to be with God or not - God doesn't compel anybody.
So, the eternal damnation (again, shortly) means not being with God and never ever having a chance to come to Him.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
coldice013 said:
I would have the same problem as you do, with the idea of someone burning in hell forever. I must ask this question, why is it that you would think that a loving God could do such a thing as to send an individual once dead to hell to burn forever. It is found no where in the scriptures that once dead you either go to heaven or hell. This to me is what the devil wants all christians to believe about our loving God, who is not so loving but ruthless.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe that when we die and go to the grave, we will be there till Jesus comes the Second Time, he wakes us up and gives us our just reward.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If you see it the way I do, you would have no problem with "Jesus as the only way" to salvation.

God Bless, His Coming Is Soon.




I will go back and read these scriptures you offered and meditate on them. Thank you. :flower:



Your post was thoughtful and compassionate toward my dissenting views on how I've interpreted scripture and also how I've digested it. :)





Peace,
Mystic
 

Krie

Member
buddy, I think that you make a strong point and honestly that is one of the reasons that i do not like the idea of that faith i want a god who will be the best friend and brother/sister that one could ever have not live in fear by.
 

sparc872

Active Member
To me, it doesn't make any sense that both Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler will end up with the same fate. How do those that believe in Universal Salvation justify this?

What about all the innocent Jews that were massacred? They'd be going to Hell alongside Hitler, how do you justify that?

I think the issue of Hitler going to heaven can be looked at like this: The Lake of Fire talked about in Revelations is a cleansing fire, where those who have not come to believe in Jesus are sent to be transformed; to have their sins removed before they can enter Heaven. It is Hell, but it is not infinite as most Christians would have you believe.
 

sparc872

Active Member
Yes, I know our history and we did emerge from the Unitarian and Universalist Christian movements. But we no longer consider our religion to be a Christian denomination, although individual UUs may consider themselves Christian.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up.
 

sparc872

Active Member
Is not a atheist someone who knows of God but refuses to believe?

No, an atheist is someone who believes God does not exist. I thought I knew God, but I always got the feeling that when I was praying, I was talking to myself in my own head, no God.
 

sparc872

Active Member
Yet, have you studied this issue thoroughly, or have you just left the question unhandled?

Absoulutely! I studied it and studied it and studied it. I went out and bought books, I stayed up late reading the Bible, the internet, and books. I talked to many Pastors, Priests, Ministers, and friends. Christianity pretty much consumed my life for quite a while.

Very shortly, I see it like this: God is inviting us to be with Him - here and now, then forever. People are free to decide for themselves whether they want to be with God or not - God doesn't compel anybody.
So, the eternal damnation (again, shortly) means not being with God and never ever having a chance to come to Him.

People are not free to decide though, that's the thing. A muslim would find it very hard to drop his Islamic faith for Christianity because of many reasons. People are born into a mindset, we are not free to choose. Someone born into another religion must find something wrong with that religion in order to look somewhere else or be forced to convert, which wouldn't be genuine belief.

I find it hard to believe that someone who never gets the chance to hear the 'Good News' in this world will be damned for the next. I also find it hard to believe that someone who hears the Bible sometime during their life and rejects it for whatever reason will be damned to Hell forever.

buddy, I think that you make a strong point and honestly that is one of the reasons that i do not like the idea of that faith i want a god who will be the best friend and brother/sister that one could ever have not live in fear by.

Exactly! When I look at Christianity now, I see it like this: Those who believe in God are either afraid of going to Hell or looking forward to Heaven. Why do I need either incentive to be a good person? I don't. I try to be good because it's the right thing to do. Sure, I might miss the mark sometimes, but I try to live a good life and I do not need God or his promise of Heaven or his threat of eternal damnation to make me do it.
 

coldice013

New Member
Maize said:
I love my children and yes, I punish my kids when they misbehave, but I don't throw them into a lake of fire to burn for messing up. That is just incomprehensible to me.

The God I know also loves his children, think about it, He sent his only Son to die for all so we all could be saved. What more could God do. The children are rebellious, do not want God's help. God is not going to force His children to love and worship Him. We must choose to love God or love what the world has to offer. Our choice. If you choose the world, then you would never be happy being in the presence of God and worshipping Him. God's only choice then is the lake of fire. But the lake of fire is not eternal only for a short time does it burn, once's burnt, it extinguishes itself out. Even in judgement God shows His love.

God bless, His coming is soon
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
coldice013 said:
The God I know also loves his children, think about it, He sent his only Son to die for all so we all could be saved. What more could God do. The children are rebellious, do not want God's help. God is not going to force His children to love and worship Him. We must choose to love God or love what the world has to offer. Our choice. If you choose the world, then you would never be happy being in the presence of God and worshipping Him. God's only choice then is the lake of fire. But the lake of fire is not eternal only for a short time does it burn, once's burnt, it extinguishes itself out. Even in judgement God shows His love.

God bless, His coming is soon

Yeah... sorry, I'm not Christian. That doesn't work on me.
 

coldice013

New Member
Maize said:

Yeah... sorry, I'm not Christian. That doesn't work on me.

Then what is it you are looking for? A solution were everyone on this planet ends up attaining a higher level of godhood through self healing.

God bless
 
sparc872 said:
What about all the innocent Jews that were massacred? They'd be going to Hell alongside Hitler, how do you justify that?
Who told you that innocent massacred Jews all go to Hell? As a Catholic, I certainly don't ascribe to that. I leave their fate in the hands of the completely Merciful and completely Just God.
Not to mention the fact that you didn't answer my question: How can you possibly believe that Mother Teresa and Hitler both end up with the same fate (that is, blissful salvation)?
I think the issue of Hitler going to heaven can be looked at like this: The Lake of Fire talked about in Revelations is a cleansing fire, where those who have not come to believe in Jesus are sent to be transformed; to have their sins removed before they can enter Heaven. It is Hell, but it is not infinite as most Christians would have you believe
You mean the same Lake of Fire where the unsaved go to be "tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)? That doesn't sound finite to me, it sounds like pretty explicit eternal punishment.

FerventGodSeeker
 

coldice013

New Member
Maize said:
In regards to what?

You said you were not a christian, so my question was in regard to universal salvation what are your beliefs? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from to this thread.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
coldice013 said:
You said you were not a christian, so my question was in regard to universal salvation what are your beliefs? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from to this thread.
I do not believe in places of reward or punishment that we go to after we die. Beyond that, I don't know. Maybe we just die, maybe we go on to another plane of existance. I do not believe it is possible to know until it happens.
 
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