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Universal Salvation

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
waacman said:
Now that I've read this entire Post! whew

Going back to the OP, I believe in eternal damnation/eternal salvation. I believe this b/c the Bible states this is so. There is nowhere in the Bible where someone may get out of hell after they have died (except for Christ), or vice versa with heaven. IF this were to be true (that you could get out of hell), does that mean that someone could be kicked out of heaven as well?
Why do you believe Christ preached to the spirits of those in Hell during the time His body lay in the tomb? Was it just so He could leave them by saying, "Tough luck, guys. Too bad you didn't hear of me before now."? There would have been absolutely no purpose to His visit there at all if the souls who heard His gospel for the first time had not been able to accept it and repent of their sins.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Booko said:
OK, normally I don't like to post massive quotes from anyone's scripture, but since Baha'i Writings may be less accessible or familiar, here's a quote anyway...

"LXXXI. And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
Thanks for that, Booko. In many respects, that's very similar to LDS doctrine.
 

maggie2

Active Member
sparc872 said:
When I was a Christian, one of the biggest things that always disturbed me was the thought of an all-loving God sending most of his beloved children to an eternal lake of fire; punishing finite sins for infinite duration. I could never wrap my head around that. It just didn't make sense to me.

So for those out there who believe in eternal damnation/salvation, I am asking you why you believe this and how you make it fit into your understanding of who God is.

For those out there who believe in Universal Salvation, I am asking you what scriptural evidence you have to back it up.

For everybody else, I am asking for your input on the belief of eternal damnation and what your opinions are.

Thanks a lot everybody

I understand exactly how you feel about the literalist Christian idea of heaven and hell. That was one of the main things that turned me off of Christianity too.

Personally I don't believe in heaven and hell as it is portrayed in Christianity. I do believe that there is something more than this life but I also believe that we need to focus on what we can do in this life to make the world a better place for all.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Katzpur said:
I've never heard Hell described as "time out" before, either, but when I think about it, that is a very accurate way of putting it -- according to my belief.

Well... sort of. We believe in a "Spirit Prison" which could be considered "Hell," but which one can be released from. It is the place where the spirits of the wicked await their resurrections. We also believe in "Outer Darkness," which most other Christians would probably describe as "Hell." It is the place where a very small minority of individuals will spend eternity. We don't believe it is literally a lake of fire, but is simply existence removed completely from God's glory.

First:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I see this fire, an unquenchable fire, as the fire with which we will be baptized upon our death to this earthly life. All our sin will be burned up in this fire, which I view as metphorical. Whatever of us that is not sin will reunion with God and be in eternal relationship with everyone we love. Thus, the love we 'build' survives. We will see our 'loss,' and suffer the judgment, but it will be fleeting.

luna
 

Ody

Well-Known Member
~Lord Roghen~ said:
who ever said they go to hell for not believing?

A key aspect of christianity is going to the father THROUGH the son. If you do not accept the trinity, in christianity (except lds) you go to hellfire, its a key aspect of christianity. That you will not except this is depressing. Btw my friend, watch those typos!
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
AlanGurvey said:
A key aspect of christianity is going to the father THROUGH the son. If you do not accept the trinity, in christianity (except lds) you go to hellfire, its a key aspect of christianity. That you will not except this is depressing. Btw my friend, watch those typos!
There are other Christians beside LDS who do not accept that idea. For many Christians, salvation based soley on the act/work of believing in a concept, doesn't fly.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Mister_T said:
There are other Christians beside LDS who do not accept that idea. For many Christians, salvation based soley on the act/work of believing in a concept, doesn't fly.
Really? They must not be "real" Christians either! ;)
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Katzpur said:
Really? They must not be "real" Christians either! ;)

Doesn't it just get to the point sometimes where ya wanna just throw your hands up and exclaim, "Will the real Christianity puleeze stand up?"

Oy vey and begorrah!

:chicken:
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Booko said:
Doesn't it just get to the point sometimes where ya wanna just throw your hands up and exclaim, "Will the real Christianity puleeze stand up?"

Oy vey and begorrah!

:chicken:
Yeah, but then I'd try and stand up and some "really" real Christian would punch me in the nose.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Katzpur said:
Really? They must not be "real" Christians either! ;)
Nope. And we get labeled as blasphemous hethens because we share the same church walls....that is until we get kicked out. :trampo:
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
SoyLeche said:
Yeah, but then I'd try and stand up and some "really" real Christian would punch me in the nose.

Just grab a handy trash can lid. It always worked for me. :)

But seriously, I know exactly what you mean. :149:
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Booko said:
Just grab a handy trash can lid. It always worked for me. :)

But seriously, I know exactly what you mean. :149:
Which is why you should convert to the Girls On Trampolines religion. :disco:
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Maize said:
But it doesn't always work - why? Because we lack the tools and the patience to make it happen; we're not perfect. Presumably, God would be perfect and would not have to resort to fear and scaring his children into good behavior.

God's perfection is independant of the system that was put in place. Not because he can't, but he won't intervene a gift He Himself gave us.....Freewill....What tool can fix a being that has the ability to choose whatever strikes them fancy? I'm all ears.
 

ΩRôghênΩ

Disciple of Light
God's perfection is independant of the system that was put in place. Not because he can't, but he won't intervene a gift He Himself gave us.....Freewill....What tool can fix a being that has the ability to choose whatever strikes them fancy? I'm all ears.

Free will is what sparates us from machines and animals
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm sorry, I don't see where it says, "and all others will be sent to eternal damnation"


It says that whosoever believeth in Him. And I'm sorry, but I don't see where it says "and all others who do not believe in him or have not heard the truth will have everlasting life".

Besides it will take more than Bible verses to convince me of Heaven and Hell. I'm a skeptic, I need tangible evidence
.


Then I can't help you. Considering that this is a religious debate, I'm using only the Bible. If we were to debate this without assuming that Heaven and Hell are real, it would be impossible to do so. We would have to go directly back to the question: Are Heaven and Hell real?

Say you had a relative that you love very dearly but for some reason, they feel they can never accept God or Jesus into their heart. Some might say that they are going to Hell forever while you are going to Heaven. So here's the question: Do you think it would be possible to enjoy Heaven in the very least while knowing that someone you love with all of your heart is being burned alive for eternity in Hell?

It is our responsiblity to help our relatives find Christ. To work with them until they accept Him. But if they utterly refuse, and do end up in Hell, I would probably be sad for them. But I would know that they should have accepted Christ, and that I warned them. So I think I could still be happy in Heaven.

Isn't it virtually impossible to be unhappy in Heaven? i've always heard it's such a wonderful place that there will be "no tears in heaven fair, no tears, nor tears up there" and "all will be gladness, there'll be no sadness"? But maybe I'm wrong.

Why do you believe Christ preached to the spirits of those in Hell during the time His body lay in the tomb?

Ummmmm...since when did Christ preach to the spirits of those in Hell? Not trying to be sarcastic, genuinely curious.

If you do not accept the trinity, in christianity (except lds) you go to hellfire, its a key aspect of christianity.

My "denomination" (for lack of a better word) doesn't exactly accept the trinity.



 
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