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Universal Salvation
- Thread starter sparc872
- Start date
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
I don't know how you consider me to be biased. I don't base it on my "interpretation". I base it on clear verses such as John 3:16.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
But the purpose of "time-outs" is correct behavior (and I don't want to seem like I'm diminishing the need for and importance of consequences, understanding consequences is important).Booko said:
Hell (at least my understanding from a Christian background) is it that it is it, the end. To continue with the analogy someone else started of God being a parent, it's the equivalent to a parent killing their child for disobeying.
I just cannot imagine a God who's vengeance outweighs God's love, mercy, compassion and justice.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Everyone is biased when it comes to how we want to see the world. But anyway....Christiangirl0909 said:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I'm sorry, I don't see where it says, "and all others will be sent to eternal damnation"
Besides it will take more than Bible verses to convince me of Heaven and Hell. I'm a skeptic, I need tangible evidence.
sparc872
Active Member
Wow, this is moving faster than I expected. I want to pose a question real quick though.
Say you had a relative that you love very dearly but for some reason, they feel they can never accept God or Jesus into their heart. Some might say that they are going to Hell forever while you are going to Heaven. So here's the question: Do you think it would be possible to enjoy Heaven in the very least while knowing that someone you love with all of your heart is being burned alive for eternity in Hell?
Think about it for a little bit and then have a looksee at some of these websites.
tentmaker . org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching . html
what-the-hell-is-hell . com/WhatIsHell . htm
saviour-of-all . org/aion . html
tentmaker . org/tracts/DoYouBelieve . html
savior-of-all . com/argue . html
Make sure you remove the spaces (I don't have enough posts to be able to post links on here)
Say you had a relative that you love very dearly but for some reason, they feel they can never accept God or Jesus into their heart. Some might say that they are going to Hell forever while you are going to Heaven. So here's the question: Do you think it would be possible to enjoy Heaven in the very least while knowing that someone you love with all of your heart is being burned alive for eternity in Hell?
Think about it for a little bit and then have a looksee at some of these websites.
tentmaker . org/books/RichManandLazarus-Patching . html
what-the-hell-is-hell . com/WhatIsHell . htm
saviour-of-all . org/aion . html
tentmaker . org/tracts/DoYouBelieve . html
savior-of-all . com/argue . html
Make sure you remove the spaces (I don't have enough posts to be able to post links on here)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I've never heard Hell described as "time out" before, either, but when I think about it, that is a very accurate way of putting it -- according to my belief.Maize said:
Well... sort of. We believe in a "Spirit Prison" which could be considered "Hell," but which one can be released from. It is the place where the spirits of the wicked await their resurrections. We also believe in "Outer Darkness," which most other Christians would probably describe as "Hell." It is the place where a very small minority of individuals will spend eternity. We don't believe it is literally a lake of fire, but is simply existence removed completely from God's glory.
ΩRôghênΩ
Disciple of Light
i concder hell an outer darkness as well, which is either pure nothingness or the last remains of the conciouss spirit sitting in its own depravity and sin
ΩRôghênΩ
Disciple of Light
didnt you already say something like that mr guy
ΩRôghênΩ
Disciple of Light
Hehe!
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
No, I couldn't. For this reason if there was a God that saw fit to allow this, I would 'rebel'.sparc872 said:
Lord Rogen said:
That reminds of me feelings I've enountered before: -Heaven and Hell as ideas about the afterlife offer poetic justice for those who see people considered evil prospering while they suffer trying to live virtuously. Heaven and Hell also provide incentive not to do live immorally in this life even if it would seem to bring benefits.
If you don't believe in an afterlife and instead Heaven and Hell are metaphors for states of mind in this life tied to virtuous behavior that can work too. Trouble is people can suffer terribly and it seem nothing to do with their moral conduct. If you find yourself in such a situation what does someone make of reward and punishment? They might appear as mere ideas, overlays that hide up the terrifying impersonal forces of nature. For that feeling to permeate someones outlook, it can seem like hell. Nothingness, suffering, meaninglessness, but still consciousness and no escape - perhaps death, but then what is death?
Even in that dark place there is still salvation. If this could happen to you, then it could happen to any living thing regardless of how virtuous a life they live. Judgementalism wanes and compassion for the suffering of others arises, you love unconditionally because all conditioned existence is subject to suffering. This in itself can be so wonderful that karmic/sin-based reward and punishment are not needed. To experience it to begin with is its own reward, and Hell seems to have lost its terror even as it carries on. To wish others could feel such a thing is to treat others with that same love, everything else follows in its wake like a natural morality. To my mind this is a kind of Universal Salvation. I wish I was there all the time!
ΩRôghênΩ
Disciple of Light
How would you go about doing that?
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Perhaps I'd start by looking for kindred spirits~Lord Roghen~ said:
(that's a joke, see my first post on this thread)
Booko
Deviled Hen
Maize said:
Hey, the Catholics have purgatory, you know. I really can't tell you what the Orthodox believe on this.
One of God's attributes is Justice. But another is Mercy.
"As to the soul of man after death, it remains in the degree of purity to which it has evolved during life in the physical body, and after it is freed from the body it remains plunged in the ocean of God's Mercy.
From the moment the soul leaves the body and arrives in the Heavenly World, its evolution is spiritual, and that evolution is: The approaching unto God.
...
The soul does not evolve from degree to degree as a law -- it only evolves nearer to God, by the Mercy and Bounty of God."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 66)
waacman
Restoration of everything
Now that I've read this entire Post! whew
Going back to the OP, I believe in eternal damnation/eternal salvation. I believe this b/c the Bible states this is so. There is nowhere in the Bible where someone may get out of hell after they have died (except for Christ), or vice versa with heaven. IF this were to be true (that you could get out of hell), does that mean that someone could be kicked out of heaven as well?
Going back to the OP, I believe in eternal damnation/eternal salvation. I believe this b/c the Bible states this is so. There is nowhere in the Bible where someone may get out of hell after they have died (except for Christ), or vice versa with heaven. IF this were to be true (that you could get out of hell), does that mean that someone could be kicked out of heaven as well?
Booko
Deviled Hen
OK, normally I don't like to post massive quotes from anyone's scripture, but since Baha'i Writings may be less accessible or familiar, here's a quote anyway...
"LXXXI. And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155)
"LXXXI. And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty. The movement of My Pen is stilled when it attempteth to befittingly describe the loftiness and glory of so exalted a station. The honor with which the Hand of Mercy will invest the soul is such as no tongue can adequately reveal, nor any other earthly agency describe. Blessed is the soul which, at the hour of its separation from the body, is sanctified from the vain imaginings of the peoples of the world. Such a soul liveth and moveth in accordance with the Will of its Creator, and entereth the all-highest Paradise. The Maids of Heaven, inmates of the loftiest mansions, will circle around it, and the Prophets of God and His chosen ones will seek its companionship. With them that soul will freely converse, and will recount unto them that which it hath been made to endure in the path of God, the Lord of all worlds. If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station.... The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 155)