Universe & life coming into existence

[The_Evelyonian]

Why do you need to seize an explanation? If you really don't know what happened (and it sounds like you don't), what's wrong with simply saying "I don't know"?

Because people don't like not knowing and, for some, it's easier to say "god did it" than admit their own ignorance.

In my mind the only logical explanation that comes is when something is created it must have a creator.

Where did the creator come from?

See, the problem with assuming a creator is that it doesn't actually answer anything. It simply pushes the question back another step. The natural answer is to simply assert that the god-being "always existed" which immediately begs the question, "Why is it acceptable to assume that the god-being always existed and yet unthinkable to assume that the Universe. in one form or another, always existed?"

It's basically a cop-out. It's another way of saying, "Your side has to explain where everything came from while my side gets to be magically immune."

Another problem with using the "god did it" answer is that you have history working against you. We've assumed divine causes before and we have a nasty habit of being proved wrong.

"Plagues are caused by witchcraft." -> "Disease are caused by germs."

"Lightning is hurled by the gods." -> "Lightning is an atmospheric electrical discharge."

"Seizures are caused by demons." -> "Epilepsy is caused by abnormal electrical activity in the brain."

There's no reason to think that "God created the Universe" won't go the way of the other three.

Throughout history, we used god(s) to fill in the gaps in our understanding. Now, as our understanding has grown, those gaps are being filled in more and more with natural explanations.

There are, of course, questions yet to be answered but, to me, there is no reason to turn to the divine for answers when that method has failed so miserably in the past.

 

[Gunfingers]

I will rephrase the question in better words---What caused the universe to start expanding ---Whats the cause??

I am talking about the instant of the big bang

And unfortunately time has no meaning until the Planck second after the big bang. What was happening at that moment was not known and can never be known. Sorry, i should've mentioned that in the last post.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Pixie magic.

How is this not as good an answer as "God"?

Bcz its not an answer at all

Because people don't like not knowing and, for some, it's easier to say "god did it" than admit their own ignorance.

Unlike you------I would like to see the chances of things occurring on its own---I already showed you the probability of this universe and life on earth existing on its own----its almost zero

Where did the creator come from?

First what is the definition of God ,For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God.

"Say: He is Allah,The One and Only.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.He begets not, nor is He begotten.And there is none like unto Him."
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

so according to Quran God is uncreated----He's eternal , his existence was always present

Also if you don't believe in the existence of God , I can prove it to you

And unfortunately time has no meaning until the Planck second after the big bang. What was happening at that moment was not known and can never be known. Sorry, i should've mentioned that in the last post.

Yes---we can only trace the formation of the universe back to a tiny fraction of a second after the big bang at which time the universe was already expanding and cooling---but the reason why it happened is still unknown

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bcz its not an answer at all

I didn't ask whether it was a good answer, I asked whether it was a better answer than God.

"God" is no more an answer than "pixie magic" is.

Unlike you------I would like to see the chances of things occurring on its own---I already showed you the probability of this universe and life on earth existing on its own----its almost zero

Is this probability greater or less than the probability of a god?

 

[Kerr]

Well the biggest question remains unanswered, Who or What triggered The Big Bang ??

In my mind the only logical explanation that comes is when something is created it must have a creator------and the creator of this universe has given many signs of his existence which is more than overwhelming for me

If we do not actually have the means to look back before the big bang it does not matter which explanation is more logical, since we cannot verify it anyway . Really, none of us knows what happened before the big bang. So we can only speculate. I personally hold the position that it was a natural occurence without the involvement of a creator. It is what I view as most logical. But it is in any case mare speculation.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Well the biggest question remains unanswered, Who or What triggered The Big Bang ??

In my mind the only logical explanation that comes is when something is created it must have a creator------and the creator of this universe has given many signs of his existence which is more than overwhelming for me

I think reality triggered the big bang.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

I didn't ask whether it was a good answer, I asked whether it was a better answer than God.

"God" is no more an answer than "pixie magic" is.

Concept of God is logical and I could prove it to you-----but to know who god is you need to know the definition of God---if you think of 'god' that a large number of people worship has got human qualities is not a god at all---we Muslims don't believe in them too

The definition of God according to Quran is

"Say: He is Allah,The One and Only.Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.He begets not, nor is He begotten.And there is none like unto Him."
[Al-Qur’an 112:1-4]

Is this probability greater or less than the probability of a god?

Yes i will show you the probability that god certainly exists

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Concept of God is logical and I could prove it to you-----

The concept of pixies is logical as well. Whether something is logical is separate to whether the thing exists, and whether the thing is responsible for some specific action.

BTW - why do you say that "pixie magic" is not an answer to the question of the cause of the Big Bang?

Yes i will show you the probability that god certainly exists

So you will do what thousands of years of theologians have failed to do. I wait with bated breath.

 

[Gunfingers]

Is this probability greater or less than the probability of a god?

Actually i calculated it out. The chance of a god is 1 over the sum from n=0 to infinity of 5n!/(n^2)! whereas the chances it arose naturally is 1 over the sum from n=0 to infinity of n!/(n^2)!. The first is about 20% and the second is almost 100%, so obviously the second is what happened.

 

[Willamena]

Because people don't like not knowing and, for some, it's easier to say ___ than admit their own ignorance.

Is it just that you can't see that that's exactly what you've done? Or do you just not care?

 

[A Thousand Suns]

First a general question----If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, If a shown to an any person and then a question is asked:

'Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?'

obviously the answer would be

‘the creator of that object.’

In same way if Quran tells us about something which wasn't know 1400 years ago it would obviously mean that either someone guessed it or it was from the creator himself------Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical,

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo spherical shape of the earth. if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.


The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light.

“Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies, And placed therein a Lamp And a Moon (reflecting) light.” [Al-Qur’aan 25:61]

“It is He who made the sun To be a shining glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty).” [Al-Qur’aan 10:5]

If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.



Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water.
"..and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?" [Al-Anbia(21):30]

Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

 

[Kerr]

First a general question----If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, If a shown to an any person and then a question is asked:

'Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?'

obviously the answer would be

‘the creator of that object.’

Assuming the object was built and not a result of a natural phenomenon .

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Is it just that you can't see that that's exactly what you've done?

Where?

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Assuming the object was built and not a result of a natural phenomenon .

can you prove it to me that the Big-bang and the life on earth is a result of natural phenomena

 

[thedope]

"The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water"

This is not factually correct.

 

[Kerr]

can you prove it to me that the Big-bang and the life on earth is a result of natural phenomena

You missed my point. I pointed out that not all objects are made by an intelligence. Diamonds are not, to take one example. This means that the universe could be the result of a natural phenomenon. It could also be created by a deity. The point I was trying to make was that both are possibilities. As for which one is more probable, well, we probably have different opinions there .

 

[A Thousand Suns]

"The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water"

This is not factually correct.

Water is the main component of living organic matter. 50-90% of the weight of living things consists of water appear regularly in encyclopedias...

In 1973 the Noble Prize awarded to two men who showed that life is about 80% water which is what exactly Quran says ("...and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?" ) 1400 years ago

It was only possible for people to come by that information, clearly expressed in those verses, hundreds of years afterwards with the invention of the microscope.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Oh, joy - we've ended up with another "the Quran is science" thread. We haven't had one of those in weeks.

First a general question----If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, If a shown to an any person and then a question is asked:

'Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?'

obviously the answer would be

‘the creator of that object.’

No it wouldn't be. Not for any unknown object.

Also, IME, it's often the mechanic who works on a machine who knows it better than the engineer who designed it.

In same way if Quran tells us about something which wasn't know 1400 years ago it would obviously mean that either someone guessed it or it was from the creator himself------Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

Can we also discuss the probability of all these supposedly scientific "facts" actually being in the Qur'an, but being completely missed by more than a thousand years of diligent Muslim scholars? I guess they were all a bunch of dolts, eh?

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat,

Not true. People knew that the world was round for centuries before that. In fact, Eratosthenes used solar observations to come up with a surprisingly accurate measurement of the Earth's diameter about 800 years before the Quran was written.

there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical,

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo spherical shape of the earth. if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

And it actually got the shape wrong.

An egg is a prolate spheroid - it's a sphere that's been "stretched" or made more pointy. The Earth is an oblate spheroid - it's a sphere that's been "squished" or made flatter.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light.

“Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies, And placed therein a Lamp And a Moon (reflecting) light.” [Al-Qur’aan 25:61]

Why is "reflecting" in brackets?


“It is He who made the sun To be a shining glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty).” [Al-Qur’aan 10:5]

If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Nope. It was already known in the region that the Earth was round, so you don't get points for the "1/30". Actually, you should get docked points for specifying the wrong type of spheroid.

Also, your "1/2" is pending until you explain why the "reflecting" bit seems to be an interpolation - that's what the brackets signify, right?

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water.
"..and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?" [Al-Anbia(21):30]

Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Again, this doesn't count. The prevailing belief at the time was that matter was made up of the four elements: Earth, Air, Fire and Water. If the authors of the Quran had simply used the prevailing (and incorrect) belief of the time, they would've still come to the conclusion that all life is made of water as well.

It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

But it did make at least one mistake: as you pointed out, the Quran says that the Earth is "egg-shaped"; it's not. The rest of your "proof" seems to be wishful thinking and faulty inference.

 

[thedope]

Water is the main component of living organic matter. 50-90% of the weight of living things consists of water appear regularly in encyclopedias...

In 1973 the Noble Prize awarded to two men who showed that life is about 80% water which is what exactly Quran says ("...and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?" ) 1400 years ago

It was only possible for people to come by that information, clearly expressed in those verses, hundreds of years afterwards with the invention of the microscope.

Every living thing is not everything, 80% is not all. Water is not the only constituent of life. That the common denominator of life is water or liquid can be deduced from observation. The shape of the planet can be deduced from observation, as it was. There is a misconception that the ancients did not understand life but they were in fact no less sophisticated than we, the difference being in vocabulary.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Also if you don't believe in the existence of God , I can prove it to you

I would love to see that.