Universe & life coming into existence

[A Thousand Suns]

Oh, joy - we've ended up with another "the Quran is science" thread. We haven't had one of those in weeks.

And yeah someone closed it---and btw it was ' Creation OF human(Quran) '

Can we also discuss the probability of all these supposedly scientific "facts" actually being in the Qur'an, but being completely missed by more than a thousand years of diligent Muslim scholars? I guess they were all a bunch of dolts, eh?

Yeah sure----i can brinng you tafsir 600-800 years old which gives the interpretation of theses verse exactly the same way----also we can use online Arabic dictionary

Not true. People knew that the world was round for centuries before that. In fact, Eratosthenes used solar observations to come up with a surprisingly accurate measurement of the Earth's diameter about 800 years before the Quran was written.

Answers.com - When did people stop believing the world was flat

Yes some greek calculated that the earth was round but it doesn't means that everyone believed that earth was round at that time

And it actually got the shape wrong..

you might wanna goggle the shape of Ostrich Egg it is exactly the shape of earth

The rest of your "proof" seems to be wishful thinking and faulty inference.

Ok you give the full referance

 

[The_Evelyonian]

you might wanna goggle the shape of Ostrich Egg it is exactly the shape of earth

um.....

 

[A Thousand Suns]

um.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah sure----i can brinng you tafsir 600-800 years old which gives the interpretation of theses verse exactly the same way----also we can use online Arabic dictionary

Really? So if we look back through history, we can see that a thousand years ago, Muslims had knowledge of all these "facts", and they learned them from the Quran?

Answers.com - When did people stop believing the world was flat

Yes some greek calculated that the earth was round but it doesn't means that everyone believed that earth was round at that time

It's not a matter of everyone believing in it. It was common knowledge among educated people. Whoever wrote the Quran down was literate, so it stands to reason he was educated as well. 800 years is more than enough time for this knowledge to travel from Alexandria to Mecca or Medina... even if you walk really, really slowly.

you might wanna goggle the shape of Ostrich Egg it is exactly the shape of earth

No, it's not.

An ostritch egg is a prolate spheroid: it's close to a sphere, but the ends are pointy.

The earth is an oblate spheroid: it's close to a sphere, but the ends are slightly flat.

Do you agree that pointy is not the same as flat?

Prolate spheroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oblate spheroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok you give the full referance

I can't tell what you mean by this.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

[youtube]UVuqcEuIRgs[/youtube]

If the north and south poles of the earth were as pronounced as they are on an ostrich egg, our images from space would show it. They don't.

The images of the earth we have show an oblate spheroid (as 9/10ths already pointed out).

 

[Gunfingers]

First a general question----If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, If a shown to an any person and then a question is asked:

'Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object?'

obviously the answer would be

‘the creator of that object.’

While there may be a trend in that direction it is not necessarily true. I'd wager there are people better at Monopoly than Elizabeth Magie.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical,

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo spherical shape of the earth. if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The greeks worked out the spherical nature of the earth 700 years before the Quran was written. It's a myth that Christopher Columbus was the first to suggest it.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light.

“Blessed is He Who made Constellations in the skies, And placed therein a Lamp And a Moon (reflecting) light.” [Al-Qur’aan 25:61]

“It is He who made the sun To be a shining glory And the moon to be a light (Of beauty).” [Al-Qur’aan 10:5]

If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

You're starting to really abuse statistics. The fact that there are two options does not make the two options of equal probability. If i roll a dice i could declare that i have the two options "1" and "not 1". I do not now have a 1/2 chance of rolling a 1.

Besides, like last time the fact that the moon reflects light was known to the greeks some 700 years before the Quran was written.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water.
"..and we created from water every living thing, do they not believe?" [Al-Anbia(21):30]

Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

While water makes up a large part of us, it's not what we're made of. Besides, creation from some element is a common theme. Jews and Christians use clay.

 

[Kerr]

That is a shadow that covers the left side and makes it look less of a sphere then it is, you know .

 

[Kerr]

you might wanna goggle the shape of Ostrich Egg it is exactly the shape of earth

The Earth is not a complete sphere, but a more like a oblate spheroid (according to Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I am not sure how that form would be the form as an ostrich egg, since the ostrich egg is not a oblate spheroid to my knowledge.

 

[Kerr]

Yes some greek calculated that the earth was round but it doesn't means that everyone believed that earth was round at that time

There are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

And it was not a just some guy who alone considered the Earth to be spherical. As your link clearly states, the ancient greeks knew it was not flat. It was long before the quran, so if the quran states that the world is spherical it is far from being first at it.

 

[Gunfingers]

There are still people who believe the Earth is flat.

And it was not a just some guy who alone considered the Earth to be spherical. As your link clearly states, the ancient greeks knew it was not flat. It was long before the quran, so if the quran states that the world is spherical it is far from being first at it.

Our options are "the authors of the Quran were aware of a scientific principle that was considered a matter of course by anyone with any education" and "the authors of the Quran were among the select few unaware of this basic principle, but were informed of it through divine revelation."

Yeah...

 

[A Thousand Suns]

It's not a matter of everyone believing in it. It was common knowledge among educated people. Whoever wrote the Quran down was literate, so it stands to reason he was educated as well. 800 years is more than enough time for this knowledge to travel from Alexandria to Mecca or Medina... even if you walk really, really slowly..

No, it's not.

An ostritch egg is a prolate spheroid: it's close to a sphere, but the ends are pointy.

The earth is an oblate spheroid: it's close to a sphere, but the ends are slightly flat.

Do you agree that pointy is not the same as flat?

Prolate spheroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oblate spheroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The greeks worked out the spherical nature of the earth 700 years before the Quran was written. It's a myth that Christopher Columbus was the first to suggest it.

[youtube]UVuqcEuIRgs[/youtube]

If the north and south poles of the earth were as pronounced as they are on an ostrich egg, our images from space would show it. They don't.

The images of the earth we have show an oblate spheroid (as 9/10ths already pointed out).

Yes, I agree with you that a Greek guy did calculate the circumference of earth accurately , but still the general prescription at that time was that the Earth was flat----and there were many other rumors about the shape of Earth at that time , thats why i used theory of probability , to see how much a person could guess correctly

also the reasons why I believe that Quran didn't copied from Greek astronomer is due to these reasons

1) According to Greek Astronomer Earth was Circular while the actual shape of earth was Geo Spherical -----For all I know the Greek Astronomer might had thought that the Earth was Circular Disk in 2D like a 'coin'

2)Quran is more accurate because our Earth is Geo Spherical like a 'Ostrich Egg' in 3D

3) It is also historically incorrect that Quran copied from Greek mythologies----because we know that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had no contact with Greeks

4) According to Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid' but its not exactly 'oblate spheroid'----also the fact All eggs vary in shapes, roundness and sizes!

Also the shape of earth is also changing so to imply that Shape of Earth should be exactly like Ostrich egg wouldn't be correct either

Measuring the Earth's Changing Shape, Alaska Science Forum
USGS Map Mysteries Activities
The Geophysical Effects of the Earth's Slowing Rotation!

Also the fact that Quran tells us "Do they not see that We gradually reduce the land from its sides? (The Noble Quran, 21:44)

meaning that the Earth shape is also changing

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Really? So if we look back through history, we can see that a thousand years ago, Muslims had knowledge of all these "facts", and they learned them from the Quran?

No because Quran gives very small details about these scientific facts mentioned------One cannot drive a complete theory from it

For example , Quran tells us that the universe is expanding -----If this piece of information is told to scientists even 300 years ago ,they wouldn't had understood whats being told because to observe that universe is expanding you need powerful telescopes

It's not a matter of everyone believing in it. It was common knowledge among educated people. Whoever wrote the Quran down was literate

If you are implying that Muhammad(pbuh) wrote this information , it would be wrong because our prophet was illiterate

 

[A Thousand Suns]

you're starting to really abuse statistics. The fact that there are two options does not make the two options of equal probability. If i roll a dice i could declare that i have the two options "1" and "not 1". I do not now have a 1/2 chance of rolling a 1.

Hmm , I am not sure what you are trying but for example if you are rolling a fair dice of six sides---the probability of any number would be 1/6---that's what i implied----Either the moon had its own light or It reflected light making the probability 1/2

Besides, like last time the fact that the moon reflects light was known to the greeks some 700 years before the Quran was written.

Iam not sure where you got that idea from----it might be helpful if you gave us a credible source for that----according to my knowledge we came to know recently about 100-200 years that the Moon doesn't have its own light

While water makes up a large part of us, it's not what we're made of. Besides, creation from some element is a common theme. Jews and Christians use clay.

Its like ,if I told you that cake is made out flour----it would be correct too although cake isnt entirely made out of flour

 

[Gunfingers]

Iam not sure where you got that idea from----it might be helpful if you gave us a credible source for that----according to my knowledge we came to know recently about 100-200 years that the Moon doesn't have its own light

Fair enough. When i googled "who figured out the moon reflects light" i found several answer sites with articles on it. Unfortunately the filter they put on our network here at work only let me get to this one. I don't really like their overall motive (it's basically an Xstian site trying to prove that Islam is evil and full of terrorists) but in this particular instance their facts seem to be straight. I remember learning in school that the Greeks were the ones that worked out the thing about the moon reflecting light. Lord knows it's not hard to figure out, since you can see the earth's shadow partially block it.

 

[Kerr]

Yes, I agree with you that a Greek guy did calculate the circumference of earth accurately , but still the general prescription at that time was that the Earth was flat----and there were many other rumors about the shape of Earth at that time , thats why i used theory of probability , to see how much a person could guess correctly

also the reasons why I believe that Quran didn't copied from Greek astronomer is due to these reasons

1) According to Greek Astronomer Earth was Circular while the actual shape of earth was Geo Spherical -----For all I know the Greek Astronomer might had thought that the Earth was Circular Disk in 2D like a 'coin'

2)Quran is more accurate because our Earth is Geo Spherical like a 'Ostrich Egg' in 3D

3) It is also historically incorrect that Quran copied from Greek mythologies----because we know that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had no contact with Greeks

4) According to Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid' but its not exactly 'oblate spheroid'----also the fact All eggs vary in shapes, roundness and sizes!

Also the shape of earth is also changing so to imply that Shape of Earth should be exactly like Ostrich egg wouldn't be correct either

Measuring the Earth's Changing Shape, Alaska Science Forum
USGS Map Mysteries Activities
The Geophysical Effects of the Earth's Slowing Rotation!

Also the fact that Quran tells us "Do they not see that We gradually reduce the land from its sides? (The Noble Quran, 21:44)

meaning that the Earth shape is also changing

A few points.
1. If I remember correctly the greeks considered the Earth to be spherical.
2. It does not matter if they stated that it had the shape of a sphere or an ostrich egg, both where equally wrong.
3. I cannot interpret "Do they not see that We gradually reduce the land from its sides?" as having the meaning that the Earth shape is changing. For example, "graducally reduce" is not the same as "gradually change". It has a direction, a form of change. The shape of the Earth changes in many ways, not just one.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I agree with you that a Greek guy did calculate the circumference of earth accurately , but still the general prescription at that time was that the Earth was flat----and there were many other rumors about the shape of Earth at that time , thats why i used theory of probability , to see how much a person could guess correctly

It wasn't just "a Greek guy" who knew the world was round. It was an established fact amongst educated people generally.

And it wasn't only "a Greek guy" who was busy making estimates of the Earth's circumference. Marinus of Tyre also came up with his own estimate of the circumference of the Earth, which Ptolemy incorporated into his own works.

That's Ptolemy as in the "Ptolemaic model"... IOW the most published astronomer of the ancient world, whose writings were considered part of the "standard" education of anyone who actually received a formal education. One of the most well-known scientific texts of the ancient world explicitly declared that the Earth was round centuries before Muhammad was even born.

And it's not that this knowledge was restricted to Western society. The Arabic world had full knowledge of this. In fact, Al-Farghani (a.k.a. " Alfraganus") commented directly on Marinus' estimates of the Earth's circumference not too long after the time of Muhammad.

It was common knowledge in the time of Muhammad that the Earth was round. While you might've been able to find uneducated people who didn't realize this, anyone educated to the point that they were literate (such as whoever wrote down the Quran) would've known full well that the Earth wasn't flat.

also the reasons why I believe that Quran didn't copied from Greek astronomer is due to these reasons

1) According to Greek Astronomer Earth was Circular while the actual shape of earth was Geo Spherical -----For all I know the Greek Astronomer might had thought that the Earth was Circular Disk in 2D like a 'coin'

No. And if you had bothered to find out how Eratosthenes did his measurement, you would've known this. He measured the curvature between Alexandria and a town 500 miles to the south.

2)Quran is more accurate because our Earth is Geo Spherical like a 'Ostrich Egg' in 3D

No. Again: an ostrich egg is a prolate spheroid... a tall, pointy sphere-like shape. The Earth is an oblate spheroid... a short, fat sphere-like shape.

Is tall the same thing as short?

If we're describing a short man, whose description is more accurate: the person who says he's average height, or the person who says he's tall?

4) According to Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The shape of the Earth is very close to that of an oblate spheroid' but its not exactly 'oblate spheroid'----also the fact All eggs vary in shapes, roundness and sizes!

And none of them are oblate spheroids. Eggs are all prolate spheroids.

Also the shape of earth is also changing so to imply that Shape of Earth should be exactly like Ostrich egg wouldn't be correct either

So you're saying that when the Quran says the Earth is like an ostrich egg, it's not exactly correct?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A few points.
1. If I remember correctly the greeks considered the Earth to be spherical.

Yes, they did.

And Eratosthenes relied on this for his calculations. His method is actually really neat, considering how difficult it would be to do two simultaneous measurements in different cities in an era before clocks: Eratosthenes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. It does not matter if they stated that it had the shape of a sphere or an ostrich egg, both where equally wrong.

They're not equally wrong; it's more wrong to say that that the Earth has the shape of an ostrich egg.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No because Quran gives very small details about these scientific facts mentioned------One cannot drive a complete theory from it

For example , Quran tells us that the universe is expanding -----If this piece of information is told to scientists even 300 years ago ,they wouldn't had understood whats being told because to observe that universe is expanding you need powerful telescopes

There's all sorts of other fallacious garbage that I've heard people claim is in the Quran on everything from chemistry to anatomy to fetal development. Are you saying that absolutely none the "science" you claim is in the Quran has any practical use?

If you are implying that Muhammad(pbuh) wrote this information , it would be wrong because our prophet was illiterate

I'm saying that somebody wrote the words of the Quran down. Whether he (whoever he was) came up with them himself or whether Muhammad dictated them to him, we know that at least one educated person had direct contact with the author of the Quran.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

Fair enough. When i googled "who figured out the moon reflects light" i found several answer sites with articles on it. Unfortunately the filter they put on our network here at work only let me get to this one. I don't really like their overall motive (it's basically an Xstian site trying to prove that Islam is evil and full of terrorists) but in this particular instance their facts seem to be straight. I remember learning in school that the Greeks were the ones that worked out the thing about the moon reflecting light. Lord knows it's not hard to figure out, since you can see the earth's shadow partially block it.

Well you can message me when you find a credible source and for website you mentioned , he basically assumes that Greek MIGHT have known

 

[A Thousand Suns]

A few points.
1. If I remember correctly the greeks considered the Earth to be spherical.

Hmmm---As far as i remember it was circular

2. It does not matter if they stated that it had the shape of a sphere or an ostrich egg, both where equally wrong.

Ostich egg is basically more accurate and you missed my point that the shape of earth is changing and so are all the shape/size of egg varies

So i would say Ostrich egg is identical to Earth but not similar