Unpaid Prison Labor

[Shaul]

And yet you can’t show where the analogy fails.

Actually I already did. Guess you can't figure that out.

 

[Firenze]

Actually I already did. Guess you can't figure that out.

Oh that’s right. “My outrage means your analogy fails”.

 

[Shaul]

Oh that’s right. “My outrage means your analogy fails”.

See, you didn't understand. It wasn't the outrage that did it. It was the false moral equivalency. You're done.

 

[Firenze]

See, you didn't understand. It wasn't the outrage that did it. It was the false moral equivalency. You're done.

And yet you haven’t shown a false equivalency. You’ve merely made a vacuous claim. Penal systems can… and do … sometimes act unethically. So do people who sometimes commit armed robbery. Your inability or unwillingness to see that is clearly a You problem. So I understand your desire to be done. Take care.

 

[Kfox]

For the purpose of this discussion we're talking about legal terms and application of the law. If you think you can use the legal definition of slavery to argue against prostitution I'd love to see you try. Because it is not that vague in actual law practice

I was not arguing against prostitution, I was arguing against you first saying prisoners are slaves, then when pressed you retort to a definition of slavery that could also be applied to prostitutes and military personnel

 

[Kfox]

The military draft is indeed slavery.

Not just military draft, any type of military service. If compulsory labor and restricted liberties equals slavery, then by definition; everybody in the military are slaves.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I was not arguing against prostitution, I was arguing against you first saying prisoners are slaves, then when pressed you retort to a definition of slavery that could also be applied to prostitutes and military personnel

I gave the definition in the constitution. You tried to slacken it to apply it to irrelevant things. Prostitution isn't forced labor by default. If it is being forced, it's rape and/or sex trafficking, both of which are illegal.

Not just military draft, any type of military service. If compulsory labor and restricted liberties equals slavery, then by definition; everybody in the military are slaves.

Military personnel are employed by the government. They are paid. And you can quit. Though quitting while in active service has consequences that you signed for. (Though the appeal to next to minors to ignore the fine print is gross and I certainly have a problem with how US treats military.)

I would absolutely understand the 13th amendment being used to challenge the draft as @Revoltingest pointed out. I am against the draft on principal for similar reasons, and the 13th relation to the draft hasn't been meaningfully challenged in over 100 years.

All the same, prisoners are so considered slaves by the US Federal government and excused to be so. Which is disgusting and should be changed.

 

[Shaul]

And yet you haven’t shown a false equivalency. You’ve merely made a vacuous claim. Penal systems can… and do … sometimes act unethically. So do people who sometimes commit armed robbery. Your inability or unwillingness to see that is clearly a You problem. So I understand your desire to be done. Take care.

Behold the musings of a man that thinks prisons are comparable to armed robbers.

 

[Heyo]

If the Government has to pay Private Prisons for each person they lock up, what is the incentive for the Government to lock up more people resulting in them having to pay these prisons more money?

Corruption. "The government" are the lawmakers who have constructed and maintain the system - in exchange for campaign contributions. It's the same as with the military, gun manufacturers, subsidized industries like farming, oil, medical. "The government" redistributes taxpayer money to those who brought them to their position. (No, not the voters, they are just pawns in the scheme.)

 

[Kfox]

I gave the definition in the constitution.

The Constitution does not define slavery, the 13th amendment allows for slavery when it comes to punishment. But that does not mean those punished today are slaves.

Military personnel are employed by the government. They are paid. And you can quit. Though quitting while in active service has consequences that you signed for.

Prisoners are employed by the government. They are paid and they can quit. Though quitting while in prison has consequences.
As I said before, slave is a loaded term, when people say slavery, they think of chattel slavery; that’s what I was objecting to. I wasn't referring to forced incarceration, and forced labor while maintaining your citizenship rights.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The Constitution does not define slavery, the 13th amendment allows for slavery when it comes to punishment. But that does not mean those punished today are slaves.

Prisoners are employed by the government. They are paid and they can quit. Though quitting while in prison has consequences.
As I said before, slave is a loaded term, when people say slavery, they think of chattel slavery; that’s what I was objecting to. I wasn't referring to forced incarceration, and forced labor while maintaining your citizenship rights.

It's only loaded for those being willfully obtuse.

Prisoners are not in any sense employed. They did not come under willful contract, they have no power to quit, and recieve punishment for not participating in involuntary servitude/slavery they did not and could not consent to.

If you don't like the definition of slavery, take it up with the courts. But slavery is more than chattel slavery. Those that only think of slavery in those terms do so out of lack of education.

Or because they just don't want to be known as those who preform slavery apologetics.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Is it an actual documented problem?
Even prisons run by government
used prison labor to make money.
I see it as a public policy problem, ie,
leaders should decide just what is best
for prisoners & society. Then regulate
accordingly, both private & public
institutions.

No I don't have any documented evidence for this. That was just my thoughts on the potential problem.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If they were slaves, they would be beaten and tortured for disobeying.

Often, they are. They're put in solitary confinement or they have parole rescinded. I already said that.

Slaves did not have rights, they were owned as property, and the owner could beat them into compliance.

Depends which slaves you're talking about. In any case, that's irrelevant. A person can still be a slave, even if there are other slaves who have it worse off.

Because the cost of products are not the same in prison as it is in the outside world. that's why minimum wage laws don't apply to prisons.

You're not quite getting the point I'm making. These people ARE being forced into labour, even if they're paid for it. And, from what I have read, the price of commissary goods is definitely not THAT low, and in some cases are significantly higher than on the outside. (SOURCE: Why is commissary so expensive? Prices for everyday goods in prison soar amid inflation)

 

[SalixIncendium]

I'm not a big fan of retribution justice in general, as it has a far lower rate of successful reintegration and higher recidivism. When you treat convicts humanely they're more likely to act humanely in the future, which is a weird concept, I know. Also most convicts also paid tax money to those institutions, and should recieve those tax benefits in the form of humane treatment and programs to assist reform, not just a hole and forced labor.

All in all, there are things for which no crime should have punishment, even in retribution systems. Which is why we have cruel and unusual punishment laws. Things like slavery or loss of body autonomy (e.g. medical experimentation, prostitution, harvesting tissue) should be categorically forbidden.

I don't see the expectation of someone incarcerated to earn their keep through work as retributive.

Outside of prison, one who has not committed any crimes isn not entitled to free housing and free food. I have to work for the roof over my head and the food on my table. There are many that do the same that live paycheck to paycheck with their entire income going to housing and food. Why don't we call them "slaves?"

Why would someone who murders, maims, or rapes someone have have any greater entitlement to free housing and food without having to work for it than I or anyone else on the outside who works to keep a roof over their head and food in their belly has?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not just military draft, any type of military service. If compulsory labor and restricted liberties equals slavery, then by definition; everybody in the military are slaves.

No it's contractual , but you might have a point in terms of the draft. In fact one could probably even say the same thing for jury duty which is compulsory.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Thanks for explaining.

Nonetheless, I don't see people who commit violent crimes and are in maximum security prisons which are supported by tax payers deserving of any pay for the work they do while incarcerated.

I don't see why they wouldn't deserve payment for their work. Their sentence is what the courts hand out per the rule of law, and anything that goes beyond that seems to me a form of vengeful punishment that indulges emotion instead of prioritizing rehabilitation.

For unpaid prison labor to be justifiable, I think there would need to be considerable evidence that it helped reduce rates of recidivism or otherwise contributed to rehabilitation. If it does neither of these things, then it is purely retributive or exploitative and needs to be done away with.

Edit: I just saw this:

I don't see the expectation of someone incarcerated to earn their keep through work as retributive.

Outside of prison, one who has not committed any crimes isn not entitled to free housing and free food. I have to work for the roof over my head and the food on my table. There are many that do the same that live paycheck to paycheck with their entire income going to housing and food. Why don't we call them "slaves?"

Why would someone who murders, maims, or rapes someone have have any greater entitlement to free housing and food without having to work for it than I or anyone else on the outside who works to keep a roof over their head and food in their belly has?

This seems to be a difference in how we're approaching certain premises in this topic, because I do believe that one's basic needs of shelter and food are fundamental human rights. If someone's entire income goes to these basic needs and nothing else, I think a solid case could be made that either their income should be increased or they should receive assistance from the state.

I don't see prisoners as any different in their entitlement to the basic human rights of food and shelter.

 

[PureX]

The labor of prisoners should only be used to maintain the costs of their imprisonment. Anything beyond that is forced enslavement and must be kept strictly illegal. The reason being that when "officials" and their cronies can profit off the forced labor of prisoners, they will surely start finding 'criminals', everywhere they look, to increase their profits. And the same goes for privatized prisons. When someone gains a profit off imprisonment, they will soon be imprisoning people for any reason, because the real reason is profit.

 

[SalixIncendium]

This seems to be a difference in how we're approaching certain premises in this topic, because I do believe that one's basic needs of shelter and food are fundamental human rights. If someone's entire income goes to these basic needs and nothing else, I think a solid case could be made that either their income should be increased or they should receive assistance from the state.

I don't see prisoners as any different in their entitlement to the basic human rights of food and shelter.

I don't think shelter and food are "fundamental human rights." I believe in personal responsibility. It's my dharma.

From where does the state receive money to lend assistance? (That's a rhetorical question, because, of course, it come from those that work and pay taxes.)

I guess as one who has had to work for these "fundamental human rights" their entire life and never felt any sense having a fundamental right to take from someone else as a result of poor choices to the point of spending time homeless rather than get assistance, I struggle with "entitlement." I feel I'm responsible for supporting myself, and that burden should not belong to another.

I suppose that's why I'm conflicted with what many have said in this thread. I completely understand the position of others on drawing a parallel between free prison labor and slavery if they think food and shelter are fundamental human rights.

That said, I'll bow out of this topic, because I don't see anything productive resulting from debate given the disparity in the core values.

Thank you to those of you that took the time to address my questions and comments.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not just military draft, any type of military service.

For those who sign up voluntarily, it's not slavery.

 

[Revoltingest]

No it's contractual , but you might have a point in terms of the draft. In fact one could probably even say the same thing for jury duty which is compulsory.

Jury duty is de minimis though. Unlike military
service, you keep your civil liberties, & you
don't have to kill or be killed.
But jury duty compensation should be better.
I recall that my pay wasn't enuf to even cover
the cost of parking my car. Many of us have
to leave our jobs while serving, & no one
compensates us. That's pretty hard on some
people, yet easily solved.