Unpaid Prison Labor

[Debater Slayer]

I don't think shelter and food are "fundamental human rights." I believe in personal responsibility. It's my dharma.

From where does the state receive money to lend assistance? (That's a rhetorical question, because, of course, it come from those that work and pay taxes.)

Yes, taxpayer money funds welfare programs. It also funds other collectively helpful endeavors like roads (which many taxpayers will never use), other infrastructure (which, again, isn't limited to what an individual taxpayer uses), and various other essential services and utilities.

I don't see any conflict between recognizing certain necessities as fundamental human rights and encouraging an ethos of accepting personal responsibility. For example, prisoners have the right not to be corporally punished via caning or other methods, and that doesn't conflict with the sentences they serve as a result of their actions.

I guess as one who has had to work for these "fundamental human rights" their entire life and never felt any sense having a fundamental right to take from someone else as a result of poor choices to the point of spending time homeless rather than get assistance, I struggle with "entitlement." I feel I'm responsible for supporting myself, and that burden should not belong to another.

I doubt you will find anyone in this thread who has had the state provide them with shelter or food, and that includes me. In fact, where I live, I receive fewer and less extensive tax-funded services (up to and including infrastructure) than an average American does. My point is that if someone works full-time and can barely afford shelter and food or can't afford them in the first place, something is wrong either with the amount they're paid or the economic system of the country or state they live in.

Also, I'm not sure where the connection to poor choices came from in the above post, because I wasn't under the impression that we were talking about those. Many people end up homeless, poor, alone, etc., due to circumstances that have little or nothing to do with poor choices. Even in cases where people make poor choices, sometimes they need help to correct course and get back on their feet. I would ask whether you disagreed with any of this, but you've said you're bowing out of the thread, so I guess the question will have to be left for another thread. I think it's central to this one, though.

I suppose that's why I'm conflicted with what many have said in this thread. I completely understand the position of others on drawing a parallel between free prison labor and slavery if they think food and shelter are fundamental human rights.

That said, I'll bow out of this topic, because I don't see anything productive resulting from debate given the disparity in the core values.

Thank you to those of you that took the time to address my questions and comments.

I don't know how many others in this thread share my view that shelter and food are fundamental human rights, so I can't comment on whether your and their core values differ. However, there's nuance to my view, because I also believe that if someone is able to work but voluntarily doesn't, they shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits as someone who can't work or someone who works but still can't cover their basic needs. Of course someone who deliberately refuses to contribute despite being able to do so shouldn't receive shelter and food via taxpayer money; that would just take it from people who needed and earned it more.

 

[Stevicus]

I don't think shelter and food are "fundamental human rights." I believe in personal responsibility. It's my dharma.

From where does the state receive money to lend assistance? (That's a rhetorical question, because, of course, it come from those that work and pay taxes.)

I guess as one who has had to work for these "fundamental human rights" their entire life and never felt any sense having a fundamental right to take from someone else as a result of poor choices to the point of spending time homeless rather than get assistance, I struggle with "entitlement." I feel I'm responsible for supporting myself, and that burden should not belong to another.

I suppose that's why I'm conflicted with what many have said in this thread. I completely understand the position of others on drawing a parallel between free prison labor and slavery if they think food and shelter are fundamental human rights.

That said, I'll bow out of this topic, because I don't see anything productive resulting from debate given the disparity in the core values.

Thank you to those of you that took the time to address my questions and comments.

I share many of the same values as you do, at least on a personal level. I can say with a clear conscience that I have never taken a dime in welfare nor from anyone else that I didn't earn through my own sweat. That's how I can live with myself, but I'm not blind to what goes on in this society.

If someone else thinks they have a fundamental human right to exploit or take advantage of someone else's misfortune (even if that misfortune is of their own making), then I still can't ignore the actions of the one taking advantage. The exploiter also has to take personal responsibility here. They're still taking from others, regardless of how one slices it. If one's core values dictate that one should work hard and earn one's keep through their own sweat, then that principle should apply to everyone equally.

I just don't believe that taking advantage of others is real "work" in the strictest sense. It's basically just subsisting off the fruits of other people's labor.

 

[Stevicus]

I don't know how many others in this thread share my view that shelter and food are fundamental human rights, so I can't comment on whether your and their core values differ. However, there's nuance to my view, because I also believe that if someone is able to work but voluntarily doesn't, they shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits as someone who can't work or someone who works but still can't cover their basic needs. Of course someone who deliberately refuses to contribute despite being able to do so shouldn't receive shelter and food via taxpayer money; that would just take it from people who needed and earned it more.

The view that shelter and food are fundamental human rights can also be found in the Universal Declaration on Human Rights: Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikisource, the free online library


Article 25
1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.


So, if a society claims to be free and respectful of human rights, articles like this should be taken into serious consideration. This doesn't mean that people get something for nothing or "free stuff," as so many people complain about. It's expected that people will still work, but that there should be consideration given to basic human needs - even those who do lowly, menial jobs.

As for the exploitation and treatment of prisoners, I do find some of the statements I'm seeing in this thread somewhat ironic. At least, I can recall some other discussions in other threads when criticisms of the Soviet system were highlighted by charges of using "slave labor" in the gulags. But their constitution forbade slavery, except for those being punished for criminal acts. If it's wrong when other countries do it, it should be just as wrong when we do it.

 

[wellwisher]

That's because it's constitutionally backed. Slavery never went away at all. It just changed hands to a new equal opportunity plantation owner. The state.

Biden is expanding on slavery at the border, by allowing human trafficking by the cartels; sex slave girls and indentured slave men, for their transport to the USA border. The slaves are all given wrist bands to wear to declare their property owner. This is expected from the Democrats, since the Democrat party was the Party who wanted to divide the Country in 1860's to maintain slavery. Below are some of the immigrant slavery wrist bands with this practice protected by the US Government.

In terms of prison, this is different. Working outside the prison, is considered a reward by the prisoners. The alternative is constant containment with the animals inside. Outside the prison, that work is reserved for the most trust prisoners, who get to feel normal for a few hours, in the wide open spaces or near normal people. Good outside work performance can help with parole.

The sex slaves and indentured slaves from illegal immigrate are not an easy life.it is more like being more in a prison, until they pay their debt.

 

[Firenze]

Behold the musings of a man that thinks prisons are comparable to armed robbers.

Behold the confusion of a man who apparently prefers the rape that is tolerated by the penal system to losing his wallet….

 

[Firenze]

Jury duty is de minimis though. Unlike military
service, you keep your civil liberties, & you
don't have to kill or be killed.
But jury duty compensation should be better.
I recall that my pay wasn't enuf to even cover
the cost of parking my car. Many of us have
to leave our jobs while serving, & no one
compensates us. That's pretty hard on some
people, yet easily solved.

I’ve been on 6 juries. I told them I would happily do it full time if the pay was acceptable.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I don't see the expectation of someone incarcerated to earn their keep through work as retributive.

Then bill them like a hospital or hotel would, rather than utilize compulsory labor.
But we complain that 'our' tax money ends up covering it, but again, they are tax payers too, whose taxes go to establishing and maintaining systems like prisons and should also go to establishing and maintaining healthcare and universities, but that's another thread.

Just like those, prisons are hold social function which, ideally, should allow for self and community improvement in the long view. As is, prisons just make it harder for former criminals to rejoin productive society. If we were only looking at prisons from a utilitarian framework, compulsory labor and the prison system in general just sets up future failure.

Outside of prison, one who has not committed any crimes isn not entitled to free housing and free food. I have to work for the roof over my head and the food on my table. There are many that do the same that live paycheck to paycheck with their entire income going to housing and food. Why don't we call them "slaves?"

I'm also for social programs covering people who do not have food and housing needs met. But there isn't a literal exemption clause in the constitution which allows them to be owned and compulsed into servitude like prisoners. So why don't we start with that?

Why would someone who murders, maims, or rapes someone have have any greater entitlement to free housing and food without having to work for it than I or anyone else on the outside who works to keep a roof over their head and food in their belly has?

I don't think one type of person is more deserving of basic necessities than another. But again, we frame it as murderers and rapists to squash down empathy. In reality the vast majority of people who are in prison, who are active slaves, are for drugs, theft and vandalism.

But even as someone who was raped, I *never* felt like it would be appropriate for my rapist to be enslaved or be exposed to starvation or homelessness because I was raped. That is retribution justice, or just vengeance.

Also, just to bring back what I said to another poster because I think it's relevent here:
Being against compulsory unpaid labor does not mean being against labor. Labor options should absolutely be available to prisoners, in surplus of options, that they can select for self-betterment, goal orientated skill building or community improvement. And selection of the labor should be collaborative between the prisoners and their guidance counselors and social workers.

Service to others is a healthy practice, when practiced willingly.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Biden is expanding on slavery at the border, by allowing human trafficking by the cartels; sex slave girls and indentured slave men, for their transport to the USA border. The slaves are all given wrist bands to wear to declare their property owner. This is expected from the Democrats, since the Democrat party was the Party who wanted to divide the Country in 1860's to maintain slavery. Below are some of the immigrant slavery wrist bands with this practice protected by the US Government.

In terms of prison, this is different. Working outside the prison, is considered a reward by the prisoners. The alternative is constant containment with the animals inside. Outside the prison, that work is reserved for the most trust prisoners, who get to feel normal for a few hours, in the wide open spaces or near normal people. Good outside work performance can help with parole.

The sex slaves and indentured slaves from illegal immigrate are not an easy life.it is more like being more in a prison, until they pay their debt.

Yea, I heard about that when the Texas Governor addressed the issues in his state that Biden flatly refuses to do anything about.

My biggest fear is the now real possibility of terrorist sleeper cells in the interior of the country.

If something terrible does happen, like another 911, people will know exactly who's to blame here.

 

[Kfox]

For those who sign up voluntarily, it's not slavery.

I disagree. If compulsory labor and restricted liberties equals slavery, it doesn't matter if you voluntarily sign up for it or not; it's slavery.

 

[Revoltingest]

I disagree. If compulsory labor and restricted liberties equals slavery, it doesn't matter if you voluntarily sign up for it or not; it's slavery.

You're saying that voluntary service is involuntary?
Dang...then everything is slavery, eg, jobs that
require you to be somewhere at a certain time.
I think your view of slavery is too broad to be useful.

 

[Kfox]

You're saying that voluntary service is involuntary?
Dang...then everything is slavery, eg, jobs that
require you to be somewhere at a certain time.
I think your view of slavery is too broad to be useful.

It's not my definition, it's the definition of the person I was objecting to back on post #84

 

[Revoltingest]

It's not my definition, it's the definition of the person I was objecting to back on post #84

OK.

 

[JIMMY12345]

Prisoners in the US are part of a hidden workforce linked to hundreds of popular food brands

The Associated Press found goods linked to prisoners wind up in the supply chains of everything from Frosted Flakes to Coca-Cola.

apnews.com

Unpaid (2-40¢/hour slimly maybe) labor in The US prison system seems to me to be just modern slavery with extra steps.

"ANGOLA, La. (AP) — A hidden path to America’s dinner tables begins here, at an unlikely source – a former Southern slave plantation that is now the country’s largest maximum-security prison.

Unmarked trucks packed with prison-raised cattle roll out of the Louisiana State Penitentiary, where men are sentenced to hard labor and forced to work, for pennies an hour or sometimes nothing at all. After rumbling down a country road to an auction house, the cows are bought by a local rancher and then followed by The Associated Press another 600 miles to a Texas slaughterhouse that feeds into the supply chains of giants like McDonald’s, Walmart and Cargill." (Emphasis mine)

Do you eat at any of these places/brands that serves slave labor food?
View attachment 87605

"The AP found that U.S. prison labor is in the supply chains of goods being shipped all over the world via multinational companies, including to countries that have been slapped with import bans by Washington in recent years. For instance, the U.S. has blocked shipments of cotton coming from China, a top manufacturer of popular clothing brands, because it was produced by forced or prison labor. But crops harvested by U.S. prisoners have entered the supply chains of companies that export to China."

Seems we should be following our own advice then? But hey, we were a nation founded on slavery, why would that go way. It just gets rebranded (yay capitalism, and the profit over people mentality).

Do not forgot the people in special RESTITUTION Centre imprisoned for debt.The food and lodgings is so calculated it would take years to pay back.Of course it is a MAFIA racket what often happens the private contractor will run the facility on behalf of the state eg a motel is converted into a restitution centre. Complicit officials will hand over the contract (brown envelopes may later be exchanged).The tax payer definitely gets ripped off.

The contractor pays for his new BMW with the proceeds of the labour.

 

[The Hammer]

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An explanation of black codes and prison debt peonage.

The roots of unpaid prison labor go back to the abolition of slavery.