Unrestricted Immigration

[fiat lux]

@Kirran: "But birth rates are going down, globally". This simply is not true, unfortunately.

"At present the world's population is growing quickly, though this has not always been the case.

• Until the 1800s the world's population grew slowly for thousands of years.
• In 1820 the world's population reached one billion.
• In the early 1970s, the world's population reached three billion.
• In 1999, less than 30 years later, the population doubled to six billion.
• The global rate of population growth is now one billion every 15 years." (Source BBC.)

The predicted population for 2025 is 8.5 billion.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Thomas Malthus warned that unchecked population growth always exceeds resource growth, leading to catastrophic overpopulation. This occurs because population grows exponentially while food and all other resources are forever finite.
Without population control, the population would be reduced by catastrophes such as famine, war or pestilence.
This concept allowed Darwin to see the pattern of evolutionary survival

Just like a transient locust swarm. ;0)

 

[MD]

@Kirran: "But birth rates are going down, globally". This simply is not true, unfortunately.

"At present the world's population is growing quickly, though this has not always been the case.

• Until the 1800s the world's population grew slowly for thousands of years.
• In 1820 the world's population reached one billion.
• In the early 1970s, the world's population reached three billion.
• In 1999, less than 30 years later, the population doubled to six billion.
• The global rate of population growth is now one billion every 15 years." (Source BBC.)

The predicted population for 2025 is 8.5 billion.

Birth rates are going down but the rate of growth is still positive because the birth rates need to be below 2.1 for a country to experience negative population growth. Many parts of the world are much higher than that.

 

[Ultimatum]

Depends on the situation. In the UK, or the USA, or another developed country with the resources, or a power like China? Sure, open the doors.

In an unstable country like Afghanistan, or a country with little infrastructure, like Turkmenistan, no.

It's not about whether or not a country is developed. It's about over-consumption and the lower quality of life for the majority of citizens in particular countries like the UK that unrestricted immigration brings with it.

 

[Ultimatum]

Can it not be to provide help to those who need it?

No. Charity begins at home. One must sort out his own house before committing to spend elsewhere.

It is for this reason that I oppose foreign aid budgets.

 

[Kirran]

As somebody pointed out, birth rates are going down, but population increase in raw numbers is still going up, although it's close to peaking.

And I think that even if immigration lowers the quality of life for people in the recipient country on average, it's still a good idea if it's rising average quality of life globally.

 

[Kirran]

No. Charity begins at home. One must sort out his own house before committing to spend elsewhere.

It is for this reason that I oppose foreign aid budgets.

Conditions are so much worse in a lot of countries than they are here. I think that if we can genuinely help them through foreign aid, we better had.

 

[Ultimatum]

Conditions are so much worse in a lot of countries than they are here. I think that if we can genuinely help them through foreign aid, we better had.

Unfortunately, as far as a progression in discussion, we have polar opposite views on this topic. I, wholeheartedly, believe that a country should only concentrate on itself and its own people.
It's the survival of the fittest.

 

[Kirran]

Unfortunately, as far as a progression in discussion, we have polar opposite views on this topic. I, wholeheartedly, believe that a country should only concentrate on itself and its own people.
It's the survival of the fittest.

Fair enough. I don't really think it makes sense to separate people out into countries when considering their welfare. But as you say, this is a difference in opinion, and that's that.

 

[Ultimatum]

Fair enough. I don't really think it makes sense to separate people out into countries when considering their welfare. But as you say, this is a difference in opinion, and that's that.

Patriotically speaking, I want the best for my country and want the people to succeed and have a successful life. This can be done by having free public services, tax incentives, and scientific progression.
Are you willing to put such things in jeopardy in order to make a negligible difference in other countries with a foreign aid budget?

 

[Kirran]

Patriotically speaking, I want the best for my country and want the people to succeed and have a successful life. This can be done by having free public services, tax incentives, and scientific progression.
Are you willing to put such things in jeopardy in order to make a negligible difference in other countries with a foreign aid budget?

Well I'm willing to do things that I hope will provide a benefit to people overall. Whether those people are from the UK, a country in which I was born and brought up, but for whose people I care no more than the Chinese or the Trinidadians, or not isn't really important to me.

 

[fiat lux]

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
We should help the less fortunate people of the world by education, the removal ignorance, teaching them how to feed themselves more efficiently, how to control their birth-rate, and help them in the removal of oppression within their own countries.

 

[Kirran]

We should help the less fortunate people of the world by education, the removal ignorance, teaching them how to feed themselves more efficiently, how to control their birth-rate, and help them in the removal of oppression within their own countries.

As an example of this, I'd point to the great work being done in Somaliland and Somalia by British- and North American-born Somalis who're returning there, in terms of justice development, support for women etc.

 

[Yerda]

Does anyone believe in completely unrestricted immigration?

I'm fairly easy on the matter and even I think there are limits.

 

[Kirran]

For the UK, I think a quota of 200,000 a year is OK.

 

[Tiapan]

Why not fix up the social failures of the systems people immigrate from. If all of Africa moves to Europe because they cant beat a couple of El Kababs, then economically this would drag the European standard of living to a third of its current level, no nation will accept that much degradation with out a violent response. Therefore immigration must be managed, or the goose that laid the golden egg will be destroyed.

 

[Kirran]

Why not fix up the social failures of the systems people immigrate from.

Lead the way, please.

 

[Tiapan]

Educate to raise the standard of living in Africa and Asia this will decrease the dependency on large families and therefore decrease population pressure. Also release two red kangaroos in Africa, which are drought resistant, and stop the famines that regularly affect the African People.

 

[Kirran]

Educate to raise the standard of living in Africa and Asia this will decrease the dependency on large families and therefore decrease population pressure. Also release two red kangaroos in Africa, which are drought resistant, and stop the famines that regularly affect the African People.

Dude this is easier said than done. There've been efforts to raise the standards of living in poorer parts of the world for a while now, and in some places they've been effective, and some areas just not. It's not a problem you can just throw money at, this stuff is difficult.

While the red kangaroos thing is a nice idea, it didn't go so well with rabbits and foxes in Australia, and contrary to popular understanding Africa isn't all drought-stricken savannah anyway.

 

[Tiapan]

You should more read about kangaroos before comparing them with vermin like foxes and rabbits. Non Methane producing, low fat, low cholesterol, high protein, soft feet, do not eat plants to ground like sheep and goats destroying the plant meristem, massively less erosion, rapid population increase after drought breaks, disease free, hardy, delicious.

Education is occurring especially with mobile phones color TVs and internet which seem to infiltrate even the poorest nations. The main inhibition to progress are local regressive particularly islamic religious traditions which are often antagonistic to raising the standand of living. eg Boko Haram