"few" is hardly the results.
Just because you don't believe and you make a statement, hardly gives it any validity.
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Up to 10million per year could die from this
- Thread starter danieldemol
- Start date
Just because you don't believe and you make a statement, hardly gives it any validity.
Don't forget the nuclear option when you run out of doctor options.
Nuclear medicine is an integral part of modern healing
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
No, it is not.
I’ve already replied to this. Another poster did as well. Their response (which I agree with), is as follows:
How do we determine whether or not prayer actually works in producing the desired results? That’s what needs to be figured out. Because as many anecdotes you can put out there abut prayer working, just as many anecdotes can be given demonstrating that prayer had no effect. That’s the problem with relying on anecdotes and personal beliefs.
What does it mean if your prayers are answered by mine aren’t? God loves you more? God didn’t like my grandfather? I mean, without data anybody’s guess is as good as anybody else’s. If anything can be believed on faith, them faith is not a pathway to truth.
You need to stop comparing faith and prayers with medical science. You’re not even close to practicing the scientific method on this prayer thing. You’re just stating assertion after assertion with no evidence. And the explanations you go to when prayer doesn’t work are just more unsubstantiated assertions.
Medical procedures are improved and tweaked for efficacy, as the results are observed. Survival rates for cancers have steadily increased over the last several decades as a result of this. The difference between chemo and your faith claims is that the former can be demonstrated, while the latter cannot, especially given the list of reasons you’ve provided for prayers not being answered. How do we test for God’s opinion, for example?
My Uncle had colon cancer, at the same time my grandfather had prostate cancer. My Uncle is an extremely devout person, and so decided to forego medical treatment and instead he went with herbal remedies and prayer. What happened as a result was that his tumour got bigger and bigger. His pastor at his church held weekly prayer meetings where all the church congregants got together to prayer for his recovery. They did this for weeks on end. His tumour got bigger. It was at that point that he decided to seek proper medical attention. He had surgery to have the tumour removed and underwent several weeks of chemo. His cancer is now in remission. So we have yet another case of prayer not working. I guess he just prayed too hard, or not hard enough, or he didn’t have enough conviction or God just didn’t like him enough, or whatever random reason you could make up. The problem is that you’re just making stuff up.
Sorry but I find these excuses to be empty, useless and untestable, especially if it’s all just subject to the whims of a God nobody can demonstrate exists in the first place.
So what is it that you teach about how faith operates? It seems pretty random to me, given what you’ve said here.
You do realize that personal opinions about “supernatural healing moments” are completely subjective, right? People attribute supernatural causes to all kinds of things, simply because they have no other explanation. That doesn’t make the supernatural explanation true though. Especially in light of the fact that there is no evidence that demonstrates the existence of the supernatural in the first place.
So you’re telling me that the method by which you test prayer claims is by a show of hands in a group of people who accept unverified supernatural explanations for occurrences in their lives? Come on, man
I used to be a Christian. As I’ve said, I don’t see how faith can be a pathway to truth, given that anything can be believed on faith.
I’ve given you several examples from my family alone where faith failed. You’ve given your own anecdotes declaring the opposite. So the question is, by what methodology can we test who is right on these claims? That’s my question. If we can’t, it’s all just up to personal opinion and belief.
What is “the spirit?” How do you know God plays a role? And how do you know which God?
They are questions, I assure you.
But yeah, I don’t believe it because I don’t have good reason to believe it. You haven’t really given me any.
Because it would have to be demonstrated that it was a miracle. It would have to be demonstrated that miracles are things that actually occur. How can you demonstrate that God has intervened and answered a prayer, especially given that prayers seem to be answered at the rate of chance?
And no, we don’t just jump to logical fallacies because we may not understand a thing. You don’t get to say, “well we don’t know exactly how this occurred so God must have done it,” because you still don’t have any evidence that God did it.
Explanations for spontaneous regression were discussed in the two articles I presented to you. For example:
“Since spontaneous regression is often associated with a previous history of acute infections and fever, it is likely that fever-causing pathogens have a beneficial role to play in activating and stimulating the immune defenses which battle the invading pathogens as well as gain a new-found recognition of cancer cells and attack them vigorously. Fever whether natural (acute infections) or induced (Coley's Toxins) stimulate a multitude of cascading, interlinking, and complex pathways of the immune system simultaneously releasing numerous products in the right quantity and qualities to combat the disease which may not be humanly possible to reproduce in vitro.”
Immunity over inability: The spontaneous regression of cancer
Sorry, but we’re talking about extraordinary claims here. I can’t just take someone’s word for it, when it comes to such claims. You don’t just believe anything anybody tells you, do you? We must have some method of determining fact from fiction.
No, because that doctor provided medical attention to that child. Medical attention really helps in the “continuing to live” department. Yeah, it’s amazing that he lived, but people who fall from high places before have continued to live before. It happens. And sometimes, people fall very small distances, break their backs and die. Is that a miracle too?
How convenient.
You know, if God did exist and wanted me to believe in him, providing an obvious miracle that obviously came from “him” would be a good way to get me to believe in “him.”
They are very important questions, in my opinion. Why don’t you want to answer them?
I'm just replying on two because the rest is not necessary, IMO.
2) no
3) there is enough evidence to sustain my position... answered prayers
So why all the questions if you don't believe? What I have seen, in the last two or three posts, you have already made up your mind so answering the questions is not necessary.
People in Jesus' time didn't receive sometimes either and others did. Like anything else, even as people do when working on medicines, you learn from what is working and figure out why in other cases it doesn't.
I gave you examples as to why it doesn't work.
1) no
2) no
3) there is enough evidence to sustain my position... answered prayers
OK.
So why all the questions if you don't believe? What I have seen, in the last two or three posts, you have already made up your mind so answering the questions is not necessary.
People in Jesus' time didn't receive sometimes either and others did. Like anything else, even as people do when working on medicines, you learn from what is working and figure out why in other cases it doesn't.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Pardon? You have me examples as to why prayer doesn't work in producing the desired results?
I'm confused.
Except that there isn't. You haven't provided any method by which we can determine whether your claims about miracles are accurate or not. Nothing.
I have questions about the assertions you're making. We're on a discussion board. Why is that strange to you?
I'm sorry to burst your bubble here, but you are not practicing the scientific method. No where even close to it. What you're practicing is confirmation bias.
I'm an evidence person. I will believe whatever the evidence indicates. Hence all my questions about evidence.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is incorrect. Studies have shown that prayer does not help and if anything might do some harm. Do you need links? I can support my claims, you should really try to support yours.
Yes... you will have to go back are see where.
Hmmmm.... you pray and it is answered?
I found this site:
Scientific Evidence for Answered Prayer
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
A joke site? Are you serious?
Of course... I expected nothing different from the two of you.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Of course... I expected nothing different from the two of you.
Are you aware that there have been proper studies done of this? If your claim was valid you could have found a valid site, not one that looks as if it were aimed at high school dropouts.
Here is an infinitely better source:
Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer
And the actual study:
Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certai... - PubMed - NCBI
Not only was prayer ineffective, if a patient knew others were praying for him or her their chances of recovery dropped.
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you funny
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
How so? I found a valid source that did a real study. Your superstitious beliefs fail when tested. You found a lying source, as @ChristineM pointed out. Why would you rely on liars?
Because you said so?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, because I linked a valid study that you can check out for yourself. I linked the paper of the study, unlike you who linked a site that openly lies.
you funny.
- Hodge, D.R. 2007. A Systematic Review of the Empirical Literature on Intercessory Prayer. Research on Social Work Practice 17: 174-187.
- online paper]
- Arch Intern Med.159:2273-2278. [PDF version
]
- British Medical Journal, 323, 1450-1451
.
- Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL. 2006. Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer. Am. Heart J. 151:934-942.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Vanity press, got caught in a sting. Not a valid source
SAGE Publishing - Wikipedia
Lying source, not valid.
Hey! A real study. But you should read more than just the intro:
"Although there was a trend toward better outcomes in the prayer group using the Byrd score, the difference between groups was not statistically significant."
That means though there was a slightly better chance for the patients it was within the normal variation that one would expect to see.
Oops, Vanity press again. Don't you yet realize the need to find articles in well respected professional journals?
Hey!! I like this one. Oh wait, it supports me and not you From the conclusion:
"Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
Did you not understand that? Prayer had a negative effect if people knew that they were being prayed for.
Au contraire. The only valid sources that you could find did not support you and one contradicted you.
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Of course... I expected nothing different from the two of you.
There is a good reason for that, perhaps you should think about it. But of course confirmation bias is a hard master to break free from