Upanayanam for Ladies?

[Aupmanyav]

I highly doubt Bhagavan is upset by women fulfilling spiritual rights and remembering him eternally Aum Hari Aum!

The fact is that dharma rides on the shoulders of women. If it was not for women, dharma would have floundered.

Goddess relief from 11th century Tamil temple wearing yajnopaveeta. Aum Hari Aum!

That is 'ardha nareeshwara'. The male part is wearing the yajnopavita.

p.s. - may be I am wrong about that. Although I see the character of the thread changing above Goddess' breast. Perhaps someone else would explain.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I will vote yes, because upanayanam or the so-called sacred thread ceremony is a modern practice that is not in the Vedas.

That is not correct, ShivaFan. The practice is very old and finds mention in Greek, Zoroastrian, and Indian mythology and scriptures. It existed before the Greeks (Western Aryan branch) separated from the Iranians and Indians (Eastern Indo-Iranian Aryan branch), approximately around 3,000 BC according to one view. That was when the sun rose in the asterism of Orion on the day of vernal equinox. Quote from B.G. Tilak's book, "Orion", here:

"In the Greek mythology Orion, after his death as above described, was placed among stars, where he appears as a giant with a girdle, sword, a lion's skin, and a club. Now, if as remarked by Plutarch, Orion is an original Greek name, we should find some traces of these various adjuncts of Orion or at least some of them in the old Iranian and Indian works.

I think we do, only if we look for them with a little more attention and care, for the transformation is more specific and peculiarly out of the way in this case. In the Vedic works Soma is said to be the presiding deity of the asterism of Mrigashiras. Soma is Haoma with the Zoroastrians. The 26th verse in the Haoma Yasht is as follows: “Fra te Mazdao barat paitrvanim aivydonghanem steher-paesanghem mainyu-tdstem vanghuhim-daendm Mdzdayasnim”, which has been thus rendered by Mr. Mills in his translation of the Zend Avesta, Part III., in the Sacred Books of the East Series (p. 238): “Forth has Mazda borne to thee, the star-bespangled girdle, the spirit-made, the ancient one.”

I have before pointed out that Orion or Mrigashiras is called Prajapati in the Vedic works, otherwise called Yajna. A belt or girdle or a piece of cloth round the waist of Orion or Yajna will therefore be naturally named after him as yajnopavita, the upavita or the cloth of Yajna. The term, however, now denotes the sacred thread of the Brahmans, and it may naturally be asked whether it owes its character.

The mantra is not to be found in any of the existing Sanhitas, but is given in the Brahmopanishad and by Baudhayana. This verse is strikingly similar to the verse quoted above from the Haoma Yasht, It says, "Yajnopavita is high and sacred; it was born with Prajapati, of old.”

“Yajnopavitam paramam pavitram, prajapatyeryat sahajam purastat.”

 

[Aupmanyav]

For example, why should Sankara be, oh, more important than let us say Caitanya or a dozen others on the same par in saintly propagation of Hindu belief?

Now Shiva Fan, who says that the other acharyas are any less important? They are all our treasures. We choose one of them according to our inclinations. However, Sankara preceeded Chaitanya by some 700 years. I will consider Ramana to be the latest. The dharma wheel rolls on.

 

[ShivaFan]

Wow! Thanks Aupmanyav - this is some pretty cool and detailed information here. Maybe I am wrong on that point as to the antiquity part. Is there any good refernces as far as a "go to" source on this, or would it require reading many books or sources?

How do you know all these things? It is a lot of knowledge of history you have, your calling is to be a Professor.

Also I did not realize Sankara was 700 years before Caitanya. Basically I know a lot about Caitanya because I have a lot of connectiins to W.B. and He is super important there.

Thanks! Om Namah Sivaya

That is not correct, ShivaFan. The practice is very old and finds mention in Greek, Zoroastrian, and Indian mythology and scriptures. It existed before the Greeks (Western Aryan branch) separated from the Iranians and Indians (Eastern Indo-Iranian Aryan branch), approximately around 3,000 BC according to one view. That was when the sun rose in the asterism of Orion on the day of vernal equinox. Quote from B.G. Tilak's book, "Orion", here:

"In the Greek mythology Orion, after his death as above described, was placed among stars, where he appears as a giant with a girdle, sword, a lion's skin, and a club. Now, if as remarked by Plutarch, Orion is an original Greek name, we should find some traces of these various adjuncts of Orion or at least some of them in the old Iranian and Indian works.

I think we do, only if we look for them with a little more attention and care, for the transformation is more specific and peculiarly out of the way in this case. In the Vedic works Soma is said to be the presiding deity of the asterism of Mrigashiras. Soma is Haoma with the Zoroastrians. The 26th verse in the Haoma Yasht is as follows: “Fra te Mazdao barat paitrvanim aivydonghanem steher-paesanghem mainyu-tdstem vanghuhim-daendm Mdzdayasnim”, which has been thus rendered by Mr. Mills in his translation of the Zend Avesta, Part III., in the Sacred Books of the East Series (p. 238): “Forth has Mazda borne to thee, the star-bespangled girdle, the spirit-made, the ancient one.”

I have before pointed out that Orion or Mrigashiras is called Prajapati in the Vedic works, otherwise called Yajna. A belt or girdle or a piece of cloth round the waist of Orion or Yajna will therefore be naturally named after him as yajnopavita, the upavita or the cloth of Yajna. The term, however, now denotes the sacred thread of the Brahmans, and it may naturally be asked whether it owes its character.

The mantra is not to be found in any of the existing Sanhitas, but is given in the Brahmopanishad and by Baudhayana. This verse is strikingly similar to the verse quoted above from the Haoma Yasht, It says, "Yajnopavita is high and sacred; it was born with Prajapati, of old.”

“Yajnopavitam paramam pavitram, prajapatyeryat sahajam purastat.”

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wow! Thanks Aupmanyav - this is some pretty cool and detailed information here. Maybe I am wrong on that point as to the antiquity part. Is there any good refernces as far as a "go to" source on this, or would it require reading many books or sources?

Though I am an advaitist, I have utmost respect for all acharyas of Hinduism, including Chaitanya, and even those who are not termed as acharyas, i.e., Kabir, Tulsidas, Jnaneshwara, etc. And whatever Poeticus says in his post about my love for Tilak*, you can read 'Orion or Researches on Antiquity of Vedas' at https://archive.org/stream/orionortheantiqu021979mbp#page/n1/mode/2up. His second book 'Arctic Home in Vedas' is available at Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Contents. Makes interesting reading.

* Lokmanya (Revered by people) Bal Gangadhar Tilak was a mentor to Mahatma Gandhi, one of India's foremost freedom fighters. He was the first to declare in a British court that 'Freedom is my birth right, and I would not rest till I get it'. Got 18 months in jail for trying to defend a martyr. In another case, he was jailed for six years in Mandalay, Myanmar. This he utilized to write a book, 'Gita Rahasya'. He was the one to start public Ganesha puja in Maharashtra, now hugely popular in all parts of India.

 

[Poeticus]

Upanayanam for ladies?

I voted: Yes.​

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not today. Just completed the rituals for my younger grandson's 'chudakarana'. Auspicious day. But sure, some other time. Would not mind some 'soma' too.

 

[Naturesmelody]

Women used to. http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=3852

 

[Naturesmelody]

Not all women today marry many are ascetic and even those that marry in scripture used to recieve. Those who preach otherwise have a very misguided attitude only carrying on rule they know but not that which is based in full truth. Also women do have physiologically more tamas than men but also have more sattva so this argument is invalid. Anyway general physiology does not account for overall gunas represented by the chart. Also times are different where womens roles and duties are changing, and due to outdated ideas that applied to different times, we are in a limbo. Many of us do not have husbands or who do are main breadwinners of family, or who did, husbands have abandoned or do not provide financial support some have not found a man fit to marry yet. Some of us were men in our past life, Some of us are just more inclined to a more ascetic life.... The list goes on. And by the amount of "Yes" voted it is a time for a new awareness around gender and its shifting paradigms.

 

[kalyan]

Women used to. http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=3852

Nope, because they have menstrual cycle......and welcome to the forums....

WOMEN are not supposed to chant Gayatri too ,for they are not wearing Yajnopaaavi:tha. If that has to be wore, they need to practice Sandhhya 3 times a day, this is not
possible for them either. Their menstrual cycle will be an obstruction to do that. As that performance is not possible, they asked not to chant manthras with
Swaras. Yet, they can know the meanings and the other discussions. AS you mentioned,Ga:rgi,, a great theologist of olden days, argued with Ya:jnyawalkya,
in a very powerful manner. She was not a vedic scholar but she was a Ve:da:nthi. Now a days, there are so many of such kind among ladies. That is not wrong.

---Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy

 

[sayak83]

Vannakkam,

Do you think girls/women should have upanayanam (sacred thread ceremony)? why or why not?

Aum Hari Aum!

Yes. Early Hinduism certainly had women well versed in the Vedas and philosophy as seen in the Upanisads. But I am unsure that the upanayan ceremony as a formal ritual is that old or not.
But here is a great set of scriptural passages that support the right of women to both read the vedas, perform puja and have the thread ceremony.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=3852
It is quite clear that the proscriptions against women reciting the Vedas, having thread ceremony etc. is the part of the increasingly oppressive attitudes that emerged in the medieval era from 11 th century CE onwards.

 

[kalyan]

Yes. Early Hinduism certainly had women well versed in the Vedas and philosophy as seen in the Upanisads. But I am unsure that the upanayan ceremony as a formal ritual is that old or not.
But here is a great set of scriptural passages that support the right of women to both read the vedas, perform puja and have the thread ceremony.
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=3852It is quite clear that the proscriptions against women reciting the Vedas, having thread ceremony etc. is the part of the increasingly oppressive attitudes that emerged in the medieval era from 11 th century CE onwards.

You cannot quote from a random internet blog and post it as a fact mate.! That is first thing.
Second this is not oppression of any kind.
Third, some of the Vedic chants’ vibrations(Vedas have SWARAM and RAAGAM) are so powerful in nature that once a woman starts chanting those regularly, it might cause hormonal disturbances in the body’s physical mechanism and disturb their menstrual cycle.
Apart from the above, the menstrual cycle, the more complicated one in nature, which causes discharge and with extended period of up to five days; In normal course, this cycle may be regular for every fittest woman. But when compounded with some anxiety, tension, fear and pressure, the period is disturbed with varying fluctuation. This is what the science elaborates. When the aquatic or sound vibrations causes some disturbances in the chemical composition in mind and body, then the abnormality begins. But it is not just sudden and immediate certain. Where in, the vibrations causes gradual but determined effect in one’s analogies of human anatomy!
The reason quoted for women not to recite or chant the versus with stronger power vibrations are thus affects the nerve system to weaken, then the gland functional causes more abnormalities and compounded with menstrual course disturbances. This might cause frequent health set back for a women, if she chants or recites some of the slokhas like Gayatri very often.

You should STICK with science

--Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy

 

[sayak83]

You cannot quote from a random internet blog and post it as a fact mate.! That is first thing.
Second this is not oppression of any kind.
Third, some of the Vedic chants’ vibrations(Vedas have SWARAM and RAAGAM) are so powerful in nature that once a woman starts chanting those regularly, it might cause hormonal disturbances in the body’s physical mechanism and disturb their menstrual cycle.
Apart from the above, the menstrual cycle, the more complicated one in nature, which causes discharge and with extended period of up to five days; In normal course, this cycle may be regular for every fittest woman. But when compounded with some anxiety, tension, fear and pressure, the period is disturbed with varying fluctuation. This is what the science elaborates. When the aquatic or sound vibrations causes some disturbances in the chemical composition in mind and body, then the abnormality begins. But it is not just sudden and immediate certain. Where in, the vibrations causes gradual but determined effect in one’s analogies of human anatomy!
The reason quoted for women not to recite or chant the versus with stronger power vibrations are thus affects the nerve system to weaken, then the gland functional causes more abnormalities and compounded with menstrual course disturbances. This might cause frequent health set back for a women, if she chants or recites some of the slokhas like Gayatri very often.

You should STICK with science

--Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy

Says the person who quotes random internet blogs!
Hinduism Today is NOT a random internet blog. Its one of the popular magazines for those of the Hindu faith for the diaspora run by a very well respected group founded by
Satguru Subramuniyaswami http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/18/obituaries/18SUBR.html
https://www.himalayanacademy.com/monastery/lineage-philosophy/gurudeva
Here is the main magazine site http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/category.php?categoryid=426
I have found the writings interesting and informative.

Now for the main argument. All you have to do Kalyan is to establish that the scriptural quotes cited in the article are false. Just in case a blog post is too beneath you, here is an entire book . See the copious scriptures quoted in page 94-98.
https://books.google.com/books?id=l...=PA97#v=onepage&q=upanayana for women&f=false
Now I would like to see some Vedic scripture noting that reciting the Vedas by women cause hormonal imbalance and disturb their menstrual cycle. Charaka and Susruta Samhita quotes are also acceptable (with verse and chapter numbers).

 

[kalyan]

Says the person who quotes random internet blogs!
Hinduism Today is NOT a random internet blog. Its one of the popular magazines for those of the Hindu faith for the diaspora run by a very well respected group founded by
Satguru Subramuniyaswami http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/18/obituaries/18SUBR.html
https://www.himalayanacademy.com/monastery/lineage-philosophy/gurudeva
Here is the main magazine site http://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/smartsection/category.php?categoryid=426
I have found the writings interesting and informative.

Now for the main argument. All you have to do Kalyan is to establish that the scriptural quotes cited in the article are false. Just in case a blog post is too beneath you, here is an entire book . See the copious scriptures quoted in page 94-98.
https://books.google.com/books?id=lptUQEU1GWcC&lpg=PA94&ots=Zhnt3445tJ&dq=upanayana for women&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q=upanayana for women&f=false
Now I would like to see some Vedic scripture noting that reciting the Vedas by women cause hormonal imbalance and disturb their menstrual cycle. Charaka and Susruta Samhita quotes are also acceptable (with verse and chapter numbers).

I would not waste time on something which I know is true one hundred percent, it is for you to check.

--Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

The reason quoted for women not to recite or chant the versus with stronger power vibrations are thus affects the nerve system to weaken, then the gland functional causes more abnormalities and compounded with menstrual course disturbances. This might cause frequent health set back for a women, if she chants or recites some of the slokhas like Gayatri very often.

If I can force an 8 pound human being out of my vagina I think my body can handle chanting.

 

[sayak83]

I would not waste time on something which I know is true one hundred percent, it is for you to check.

--Slave of Chinna Jeeyar Swamy

Your repeated inability to back up your proclamations are noted.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I can force an 8 pound human being out of my vagina I think my body can handle chanting.

My homage to all mothers. The pain, I read, is sometimes as severe as breaking of finger bones, rated extreme.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lptUQEU1GWcC&lpg=PA94&ots=Zhnt3445tJ&dq=upanayana for women&pg=PA97#v=onepage&q=upanayana for women&f=false

And the first name that I read there is Aupamanyava. However, a nice book.

 

[kalyan]

Your repeated inability to back up your proclamations are noted.

who cares really! may be you should experiment it on some woman in your family and let us know the results

 

[sayak83]

who cares really! may be you should experiment it on some woman in your family and let us know the results

I plan to if I have a daughter in future.
Your absence of caring is also noted.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

There was a stage where I considered becoming a HIndu. Frankly, it was people like Kalyan that made me seek a different faith. Why has a beautiful religion like Hinduism acquired so many practitioners who are superstitious, misogynistic, nationalistic, etc? It's very sad.