Updated version of why I don't accept Bahai Faith.

[Link]

(1) The Finality of Mohammad (s) in terms of Nabis, is clear to me in the Quran. To clarify briefly, if it was metaphoric meaning of any type, it would have said "Mursaleen" instead of Nabiyeen. That is if Baha'allah interpretation that it mean all Prophets were each other and hence Mohammad (s) is also the final as well that way, a better expression to that would be to say "al-Musraleen" since it's more comprehensive of all those sent. Similar to other interpretations such as ring, seal as in verifying type meaning, etc. It's clear that it mentions him first as a Rasool then seal of Nabiyeen. I've shown before per Quran, not every Nabi is a Rasool and not every Rasool is a Nabi. Both are true but it happens to be the case, the Quran also expresses them as if almost all where both. In this sense, it can be used interchangeably, but to finalize, it's specific to the word. This suggests the Seal/Finalizer is the true meaning.

(2) The day of judgment is clear to me in Quran as well. The Bahai interpretation that Isa (a) was day of judgment of Musa (a), Mohammad (s) day of judgment of Isa (a), and Ba'ahallah day of judgment of Mohammad (s) doesn't stand to what Quran actually says. For example, there are verses that say there will be no room for denial on that day. If you know the Arabic, it doesn't mean "You should not deny", but means there is no way denial will happen. But Bahais rely on translations often, and so when shown these verses, they get a translation and say it can mean "You aren't allow to deny", but the Arabic is clear, that there is no way for anyone to deny that day. There is many features of the day of judgment, and it's explained to be also when people will enter hell. Per Quran, hell has different realities, it encompasses disbelievers in this world, but they don't notice, it's more manifest after death, but still it's not to the level of punishment of day of judgment. The Quran is clear hell will only come in full of view on the day of judgment and that is when people will enter it's full reality. There are many verses, and I can go on forever about this. Anyone interpreting them in unbiased way, no one would come up with Bahai Faith conclusions about it.

(3) There is Twelve Successors and Imam Mahdi (a) is the Twelfth successor. This is true per Quran and many hadiths as well. While if we count the Bab, Baha'allah and his two successors, and say they are successors of Hassan Al-Askari (a), then the Mahdi (a) can't be the twelfth successor. You get either 11 successors to Mohammad (s) (not counting the Bahai chosen ones) per Bahai Faith or 15 (if we say they are sons of Hassan Al-Askari (a)).

(4) There is an Imam in all times per Quran and many hadiths. There is no current Imam in Bahai faith.

(5) Bab and Baha'allah were not related closely by kinship which violates the rules of God in that regard pertaining to succession.

(6) Similar to the above point, the offspring of Baha'allah didn't continue the mission and so there is no real form of Ahlulbayt in the sense of having Successors add up to Twelve and a chosen kinship to continue the mission of the founders.

(7) The final Messenger (The Mahdi per hadiths) per Quran would be sent universally that every city will be tried with him and there is potentiality that every city is destroyed before of day of judgment. See Surah Isra.

(8) The finality of Mohammad (s) in terms of Nabis is narrated from the Imams (a) in many hadiths.

(9) Mohammad (s) and his family (a) being the best of creation is narrated a lot in hadiths and verified in Quran. God always replaces one Ahlulbayt by a better one, but there can't be any better Ahlulbayt (a). Therefore we can conclude on the basis of this that these are the final chosen ones sent to mankind.

(10) The Bahai writings are no where on par with Quran in any field.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

One issue with the Baha'i faith is that since it seems to at times be very evangelical, people are sometimes converted or near-converted to it with incorrect or mistaken ideas about it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@Link

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." 1 John 2: 18.

likewise, Muhammad is known to have come in the End Time.

بحار الأنوار - ط مؤسسةالوفاء - العلامة المجلسي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

Always, Prophets of God, have come at the End Time.
It seems that by "End Time" or "Last Hour" it is mean the End of Previous Ummah.

Jesus came, when it was End of Ummah of Moses. Muhammad came, when it was End of people of Jesus.


وَلِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَجَلࣱۖ فَإِذَا جَاۤءَ أَجَلُهُمۡ لَا یَسۡتَأۡخِرُونَ سَاعَةࣰ وَلَا یَسۡتَقۡدِمُونَ


"For each community there is an appointed term. When their time arrives, they can neither delay it for a moment, nor could they advance it.
O children of Adam, verily apostles from among you shall come unto you, who shall expound my signs unto you: Whosoever therefore shall fear God and amend, there shall come no fear on them neither shall they be grieved"
Quran 7:34-35


The Last Hour or End Time, is when the wickedness is increased, there are many Ulama who are wicked (Antichrist), and the guidance is gone from that Ummah and its Ulama. This is when, a Prophet is sent to Resurrect the Dead. By "Dead" is meant the ignorant and disbelievers. By alive is mean "guided and Believers".


The Qaim or Mahdi comes when it is End of Ummah of Muhammad. Hence it is said, Qaim comes in Akhir ul-zamaan.
By "End Time" is not meant literally End of the World. But End of a People. End of a previous human Era. There were ancient world that ended. A new world has come

 

[Link]

I tried to see where you addressed any of the reasons I stated.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Explain in what way Satan has been killed now. Otherwise there is no problem in that the day he been respited to is when Imam Mahdi rises. But Satan is not dead now so this hadith goes against your concept.

Can you show me where in a Hadith, it says the Satan will be killed when Qaim comes?

Satan or Iblis is an allusion to different beings.
Depends on the context, where it says.

Please quote Hadith, we look at it, and see if it happened or not.

But as an example. In the Verse:

....وَاللَّيْلِ إِذا يَغْشى


(الامام الصادق عليه السلام) " دولة إبليس إلى يوم القيامة، وهو (يوم) قيام القائم. والنهار إذا تجلى: وهو القائم عليه السلام إذا قام

The Night is an allusion to Dynasty of Iblis.


عن ابن عباس قال سمعت رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) يقول اسمي في القرآن " والشمس وضحاها " واسم علي بن أبي طالب " والقمر إذا تلاها " والحسن والحسين " والنهار إذا جلاها " واسم بني أمية " والليل إذا يغشاها


This is an allusion to the Dynasties that started from Bani Ummah. By coming of the Qaim, the Khilafat (Dynasty of Khalifs) comes to end.

It means when the Qaim comes, He will vanish False Successorship in Islam that had started. It was to happen with the Sword of the Qaim:


"Soon will We dismiss the one who was like unto him [`Alí Páshá], and will lay hold on their Chief who ruleth the land [the Sultan], and I, verily, am the Almighty, the All-Compelling. Be thou steadfast in the Cause of God and extol thy Lord morn and eve."
(Bahá’u’lláh, Lawh-i-Fu'ád, 1869)

By the "Sword" is not meant the Qaim have physical sword. The Sword is an allusion to the Tonge of the Qaim.
He says "Be" it "Happens"

كن فيكون

Bahaullah said the System of Khalifs be gone, and it happend. The Last Khalif were the Uthmani, and the Tablet above was to him.

 

[Link]

Can you show me where in a Hadith, it says the Satan will be killed when Qaim comes?

He was asking for respite to lead astray. So it ends on the "appointed time". Care to explain what it means from your perspective? No more influence of evil? That's not true of this time either.

 

[Truthseeker]

(1) The Finality of Mohammad (s) in terms of Nabis, is clear to me in the Quran. To clarify briefly, if it was metaphoric meaning of any type, it would have said "Mursaleen" instead of Nabiyeen. That is if Baha'allah interpretation that it mean all Prophets were each other and hence Mohammad (s) is also the final as well that way, a better expression to that would be to say "al-Musraleen" since it's more comprehensive of all those sent. Similar to other interpretations such as ring, seal as in verifying type meaning, etc. It's clear that it mentions him first as a Rasool then seal of Nabiyeen. I've shown before per Quran, not every Nabi is a Rasool and not every Rasool is a Nabi. Both are true but it happens to be the case, the Quran also expresses them as if almost all where both. In this sense, it can be used interchangeably, but to finalize, it's specific to the word. This suggests the Seal/Finalizer is the true meaning.

Thus We send thee (O Muḥammad) unto a nation, before whom other nations have passed away, that thou mayst recite unto them that which We have inspired in thee, while they are disbelievers in the Beneficent. Say: He is my Lord; there is no God save Him. In Him do I put my trust and unto Him is my recourse.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 13:30

What is translated here as “nation” I think the original word was Umma. It means a community of believers I know.

Also in the Qur'an in this translation:

And every nation hath its term, and when its term cometh, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it).
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 7:34

Does this mean the end of a Umma of believers? Something to think about. Here's a couple of similar verses:

No nation can outstrip its term, nor yet postpone it.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 23:43


No nation can outstrip its term nor can they lag behind.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 15:5

All for what it's worth. This doesn't mean that the Baha'i Faith is necessarily the successor to the Islamic Faith.

But there is this passage that I find meaningful:

It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God’s appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from those that have preceded it. The designation “Seal of the Prophets” fully revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation.
Bahá’u’lláh, "Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh", 25


I understand this to mean that all Prophets before the Bab and Baha'u'llah came to prophesize and prepare us for this Day and Muhammad was the last of these. I hope this doesn't offend your sensibilities. I'm just stating my belief, and this is not something authoritative to you.

(2) The day of judgment is clear to me in Quran as well. The Bahai interpretation that Isa (a) was day of judgment of Musa (a), Mohammad (s) day of judgment of Isa (a), and Ba'ahallah day of judgment of Mohammad (s) doesn't stand to what Quran actually says. For example, there are verses that say there will be no room for denial on that day. If you know the Arabic, it doesn't mean "You should not deny", but means there is no way denial will happen. But Bahais rely on translations often, and so when shown these verses, they get a translation and say it can mean "You aren't allow to deny", but the Arabic is clear, that there is no way for anyone to deny that day. There is many features of the day of judgment, and it's explained to be also when people will enter hell. Per Quran, hell has different realities, it encompasses disbelievers in this world, but they don't notice, it's more manifest after death, but still it's not to the level of punishment of day of judgment. The Quran is clear hell will only come in full of view on the day of judgment and that is when people will enter it's full reality. There are many verses, and I can go on forever about this. Anyone interpreting them in unbiased way, no one would come up with Bahai Faith conclusions about it.

Thou hast written of a verse in the Gospels, asking if at the time of Christ all souls did hear His call. Know that faith is of two kinds. The first is objective faith that is expressed by the outer man, obedience of the limbs and senses. The other faith is subjective, and unconscious obedience to the will of God. There is no doubt that, in the day of a Manifestation such as Christ, all contingent beings possessed subjective faith and had unconscious obedience to His Holiness Christ.


For all parts of the creational world are of one whole. Christ the Manifestor reflecting the divine Sun represented the whole. All the parts are subordinate and obedient to the whole. The contingent beings are the branches of the tree of life while the Messenger of God is the root of that tree. The branches, leaves and fruit are dependent for their existence upon the root of the tree of life. This condition of unconscious obedience constitutes subjective faith. But the discerning faith that consists of true knowledge of God and the comprehension of divine words, of such faith there is very little in any age. That is why His Holiness Christ said to His followers, “Many are called but few are chosen.”
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Bahá’í World Faith (‘Abdu’l-Bahá section)", 56.1


The same is true for for this time. Everyone has unconscious obedience and recognition, in my opinion, of course. I want to make clear that I don't expect you to believe this. After all, you don't see this as authoritative.

3) There is Twelve Successors and Imam Mahdi (a) is the Twelfth successor. This is true per Quran and many hadiths as well. While if we count the Bab, Baha'allah and his two successors, and say they are successors of Hassan Al-Askari (a), then the Mahdi (a) can't be the twelfth successor. You get either 11 successors to Mohammad (s) (not counting the Bahai chosen ones) per Bahai Faith or 15 (if we say they are sons of Hassan Al-Askari (a)).

(4) There is an Imam in all times per Quran and many hadiths. There is no current Imam in Bahai faith.

It's confusing that you say that there are only 12 Imams, and at the same time Imams at all times. How do you define Imam?

(5) Bab and Baha'allah were not related closely by kinship which violates the rules of God in that regard pertaining to succession.

I don't see the connection on this one. They were independent Prophets in our faith. Yes, they appeared close to each other in time. But to me, this would be equivalent of Muhammad succeeding Jesus by close kinship. It is obvious on this point that you didn't realize they were independent Prophets in our faith.

(6) Similar to the above point, the offspring of Baha'allah didn't continue the mission and so there is no real form of Ahlulbayt in the sense of having Successors add up to Twelve and a chosen kinship to continue the mission of the founders.

That's not important to us. Maybe it is to you. The kinship successors were only two.

(7) The final Messenger (The Mahdi per hadiths) per Quran would be sent universally that every city will be tried with him and there is potentiality that every city is destroyed before of day of judgment. See Surah Isra.

I looked in 3 Qur'an listings and found no Surah Isra. Can you give me another name to this Surah?

(8) The finality of Mohammad (s) in terms of Nabis is narrated from the Imams (a) in many hadiths.

Finality in rasul is what is important in this case. To be clear we believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Messengers. Furthermore Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are not Nabis in our definition of that term.

(9) Mohammad (s) and his family (a) being the best of creation is narrated a lot in hadiths and verified in Quran. God always replaces one Ahlulbayt by a better one, but there can't be any better Ahlulbayt (a). Therefore we can conclude on the basis of this that these are the final chosen ones sent to mankind.

He was asking for respite to lead astray. So it ends on the "appointed time". Care to explain what it means from your perspective? No more influence of evil? That's not true of this time either.

All Prophets in our eyes are the best of creation because they are as if they one soul. However, they may be caused to excel the other.

We have already in the foregoing pages assigned two stations unto each of the Luminaries arising from the Daysprings of eternal holiness. One of these stations, the station of essential unity, We have already explained. “No distinction do We make between any of them.”1 The other is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” 2

1 Qur’án 2:136.

2 Qur’án 2:253.
Bahá’u’lláh, "The Kitáb-i-Íqán", 191

10) The Bahai writings are no where on par with Quran in any field.

There is no answer I can make to that one other than to say they are both the word of God in my view.

 

[Link]

Thus We send thee (O Muḥammad) unto a nation, before whom other nations have passed away, that thou mayst recite unto them that which We have inspired in thee, while they are disbelievers in the Beneficent. Say: He is my Lord; there is no God save Him. In Him do I put my trust and unto Him is my recourse.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 13:30

What is translated here as “nation” I think the original word was Umma. It means a community of believers I know.

Also in the Qur'an in this translation:

And every nation hath its term, and when its term cometh, they cannot put it off an hour nor yet advance (it).
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 7:34

Does this mean the end of a Umma of believers? Something to think about. Here's a couple of similar verses:

No nation can outstrip its term, nor yet postpone it.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 23:43


No nation can outstrip its term nor can they lag behind.
Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdu’lláh, "The Meaning of the Glorious Qur’án", 15:5

If you read the context of the "term" it's about punishment of God in the same way he destroyed nations before. Every time God sends Messengers, there is appointed term to that people if they reject. So this something that didn't happen with Baha'allah, people were not tried with destruction.

Depending on the context, the term is either threatening people of Mohammad (S) of that time, that they if reject miracles they maybe destroyed. The Quran elsewhere explains why punishment was averted regarding them. Or it some contexts and sometimes both, it refers to when the Mahdi (a) comes, people if they reject him on certain terms and oppress believers will be punished.

Of course, the term can be avoided which is why God says he erases from the book what he wishes and confirms. The warnings in this respect are saying, if the term comes it's pretty much over and they can't avert the punishment.

It's confusing that you say that there are only 12 Imams, and at the same time Imams at all times. How do you define Imam?

There is only Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). There was twelve Successors to Musa (a). Twelve Successors to Ibrahim (a). This is what I mean by the number twelve. However, with Bahai interpretation there is either only eleven successors to Mohammad (s) or fifteen.

I don't see the connection on this one. They were independent Prophets in our faith. Yes, they appeared close to each other in time. But to me, this would be equivalent of Muhammad succeeding Jesus by close kinship. It is obvious on this point that you didn't realize they were independent Prophets in our faith.

Either way it's against God's way. God reveals wisdom in putting succession to one another in kinship. Independence here is just semantics. They are close to each other, and one branches off the other.

That's not important to us. Maybe it is to you. The kinship successors were only two.

It is important to me because Quran shows a constant way and argues for the constant way. It shows the design that God would be consistent in giving an Ahlulbayt to each Prophet. Hadiths confirm this too. Twelve is spoken about in Quran for a reason. It's talked about in the past and Mohammad's (s) successors as well, as a constant thing.

 

[Truthseeker]

If you read the context of the "term" it's about punishment of God in the same way he destroyed nations before. Every time God sends Messengers, there is appointed term to that people if they reject. So this something that didn't happen with Baha'allah, people were not tried with destruction.

Personally, I believe that at least some of that destruction of people if they rejected the message in the Qur'an is not physical. To me those descriptions are metaphorical of their spiritual destruction. Besides that, look at what straits the people of Iran are in today, under a repressive regime that also takes poor care of them in other ways. The dysfunction of the Muslim world abounds in many places. The Muslim world is a mess. The whole world is dysfunctional also to a large degree. The Western "Christian" world is eaten up by materialism, and many of the Western Christians are becoming irreligious. Christianity is increasing in other parts of the world I note to offset that. It is hard to say how many Muslims there actually are since there are severe penalties in many predominate Muslim countries if a person leaves Islam for another religion, or just quits Islam. How many are secretly not Muslims is not known.

There is only Twelve Successors to Mohammad (s). There was twelve Successors to Musa (a). Twelve Successors to Ibrahim (a). This is what I mean by the number twelve. However, with Bahai interpretation there is either only eleven successors to Mohammad (s) or fifteen.

Why does that always have to be the pattern? Is there any reason in any scripture that establishes there always has to be 12 successors in the future? Besides, the 12 disciples all died pretty soon, and there were none of them around between that time and Muhammad's Revelation. So how was there an Imam at all times during that time? I know nothing about 12 successors to Moses. I never heard of that, and at any rate they must of died off by the time of Jesus. Maybe you are referring to 12 tribes? I find it hard to conceive of a tribe being a successor to Moses. 10 of those 12 tribes also disappeared between Moses and Jesus, were carried off for good to other places.

I see no reason to respond to your other points. That would be fruitless.

 

[Link]

Personally, I believe that at least some of that destruction of people if they rejected the message in the Qur'an is not physical. To me those descriptions are metaphorical of their spiritual destruction. Besides that, look at what straits the people of Iran are in today, under a repressive regime that also takes poor care of them in other ways. The dysfunction of the Muslim world abounds in many places. The Muslim world is a mess. The whole world is dysfunctional also to a large degree. The Western "Christian" world is eaten up by materialism, and many of the Western Christians are becoming irreligious. Christianity is increasing in other parts of the world I note to offset that. It is hard to say how many Muslims there actually are since there are severe penalties in many predominate Muslim countries if a person leaves Islam for another religion, or just quits Islam. How many are secretly not Muslims is not known.

You can believe what you want, but the context of the Quran is terms of real destruction of cities such as Lut's (a) people.

Why does that always have to be the pattern? Is there any reason in any scripture that establishes there always has to be 12 successors in the future? Besides, the 12 disciples all died pretty soon, and there were none of them around between that time and Muhammad's Revelation. So how was there an Imam at all times during that time? I know nothing about 12 successors to Moses. I never heard of that, and at any rate they must of died off by the time of Jesus. Maybe you are referring to 12 tribes? I find it hard to conceive of a tribe being a successor to Moses. 10 of those 12 tribes also disappeared between Moses and Jesus, were carried off for good to other places.

I see no reason to respond to your other points. That would be fruitless.

There is a reason. We had a thread here: The 12 Successors to Mohammad (s) in Quran and the Mahdi being the 12th Successor.

Also, the hadiths confirm for example in Misbahal Shariah:

The Recognition of the Imams

It is related with a sound chain of authority from Salman al- Farsi, 'I visited the Messenger of Allah who looked at me and said,

"O Salman, Allah does not send a prophet or messenger unless there are with him twelve Captains."

“O Messenger of Allah, I know this from the people of the two books.”

"O Salman, do you know my twelve Captains whom Allah has chosen to be leaders after me?"

"Allah and His Messenger know best."

"O Salman, Allah created me from the quintessence of light, and called me, so I obeyed Him. Then He created 'Ali from my light, and called him, and he obeyed. From my light and the light of 'Ali He created Fatimah: He called her and she obeyed. From me, 'Ali and Fatimah, He created al-Hasan and al-Husayn. He called them and they obeyed Him. Allah has named us with five of His names: Allah is al-Mahmud (the Praised) and I am Muhammad (worthy of praise); Allah is al-'Ali (the High), and this is 'Ali (the one of high rank); Allah is al-Fatir (Creator out of nothing), and this is Fatimah; Allah is the One with Hasan (beneficence), and this is Hasan; Allah is Muhassin (the Beautiful), and this is Husayn. He created nine Imams from the light of al-Husayn and called them and they obeyed Him, before Allah created either Heaven on high, the outstretched earth, the air, the angels or man. We were lights who glorified Him, listened to Him and obeyed Him."

"O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be your ransom! What is there for the person who recognizes these men as they should be recognized?"

"O Salman, whoever recognizes them as they should be recognized, and follows their example, befriends them and is free of their enemies, by Allah! he is one of us. He will return to where we return, and he will be where we are!"

"O Messenger of Allah, is there belief without knowing their names and lineage?"

"No, Salman."

"Messenger of Allah, where will I find them?"

"You already know al-Husayn; then there will be the master of the worshippers, 'Ali ibn Husayn (Zayn al-'Abidin); then his son Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the piercer of the knowledge of the early and the later prophets and messengers (al-Baqir); then Ja'far ibn Muhammad, the truthful tongue of Allah (al-Sadiq); then Musa ibn Ja'far, the one who kept his rage silent through patience in Allah (al-Kadhim); then 'Ali ibn Musa, pleased with the secret of Allah (al-Rida '); then Muhammad ibn 'Ali, the chosen one from the creatures of Allah (al-Mukatar); then 'Ali ibn Muhammad, the guide to Allah (al-Hadi); then al-Hasan, son of 'Ali, the silent, trustworthy guardian over the secret of Allah (al-'Askari); then mim ha' mim dal (Muhammad), called Ibn al-Hasan, the announcer who establishes the right of Allah."

Salman said, 'I wept. Then I continued,

"O Messenger of Allah, let my life be deferred until their time! "’

'He said, "O Salman, recite this:



فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ أُولاهُمَا بَعَثْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ عِبَادًا لَّنَا أُوْلِي بَأْسٍ شَدِيدٍ فَجَاسُواْ خِلاَلَ الدِّيَارِ وَكَانَ وَعْدًا مَّفْعُولاً

ثُمَّ رَدَدْنَا لَكُمُ الْكَرَّةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَمْدَدْنَاكُم بِأَمْوَالٍ وَبَنِينَ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ أَكْثَرَ نَفِيرًا



When the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you our servants of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished. Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band." ' (17:5-6)

"I wept a lot," said Salman, "and my yearning became intense.” I said, "O Messenger of Allah, is it a pledge from you?"

' "Yes, by the One Who sent me and entrusted me with the Message; it is a pledge from me and from 'Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, al-Husayn, and the nine Imams descended from the children of al-Husayn, to you and those who are with us, and those of us who are wronged. Whoever is truly sincere in his belief, then by Allah, Salman, let Iblis and his armies come. Whoever has pure disbelief will be punished by retaliation, torture and inheritance (i.e. by others rather than them). Your Lord will not wrong anyone. It is we who are indicated in this verse:



وَنُرِيدُ أَن نَّمُنَّ عَلَى الَّذِينَ اسْتُضْعِفُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنَجْعَلَهُمْ أَئِمَّةً وَنَجْعَلَهُمُ الْوَارِثِينَ. وَنُمَكِّنَ لَهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَنُرِي فِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ وَجُنُودَهُمَا مِنْهُم مَّا كَانُوا يَحْذَرُونَ



We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the leaders, and to make them the heirs, and to grant them power in the land, and to make Pharaoh, Haman and their armies see from them what they feared." ' (28:5-6)

Salman said, “I took leave of the Messenger of Allah, completely unconcerned as to how Salman would meet death, or how death would meet him.”

 

[Link]

And Surah Isra is Chapter 17.

 

[Truthseeker]

You can believe what you want, but the context of the Quran is terms of real destruction of cities such as Lut's (a) people.

That destruction is also in the Bible.

"O Salman, Allah does not send a prophet or messenger unless there are with him twelve Captains."

There were 18 "captains" with the Bab. That doesn't say that 12 couldn't be exceeded. They didn't succeed each other, but the disciples of Christ didn't succeed each other either. There are 18 that are said be the disciples of Baha'u'llah.

And Surah Isra is Chapter 17.

That's good to know.

 

[Link]

That destruction is also in the Bible.

There were 18 "captains" with the Bab. That doesn't say that 12 couldn't be exceeded. They didn't succeed each other, but the disciples of Christ didn't succeed each other either. There are 18 that are said be the disciples of Baha'u'llah.

That's good to know.

It's obvious it means in this context, there is consistent number "Twelve". Also, a Prophet is a Captain/leader/Chief. Of course, this is to designate the number of successors to twelve, so it doesn't make sense to say not all Prophets have Twelve with them.

Also, the twelve with Zakariya (a) are his successors, Yahya (a), Isa (a) and his predecessors, Imran (a), Dul-Kil (a), Alyasa (a) Elyas (a), Sulaiman (a), Dawood (a), Talut (a), Samuel (a), Haroun (a), Musa (a).

The Twelve "with him" is explained in the hadiths, they ascend together and form an Ahlulbayt. Mohammad (s) Twelve are his successors, while the twelve with the Mahdi (a) are his predecessors.

 

[Link]

Finality in rasul is what is important in this case. To be clear we believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Messengers. Furthermore Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are not Nabis in our definition of that term.

Then why did baha'allah try to explain seal of Prophets in a way that means all Prophets are each other?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He was asking for respite to lead astray. So it ends on the "appointed time". Care to explain what it means from your perspective? No more influence of evil? That's not true of this time either.

From Bahai scriptures, the Satan or the Iblis that was supposed to be gone with coming of Mahdi, is an allusion to the Dynasties of Khalifs, that had started with Muawiyyah in year 666 after Chris.
666 which is also mentioned in the Bible as Number of Satan or Beast was the year Muawiyyah Rised.
Mahdi's mission was to establish pure Religion, and destroy the System of Khalif Dynasty and false Successorship in Islam. This time, the Religion of God was to be protected against divisions hence the aforementioned Satan or the Iblis was gone.

So, the success of Mahdi's mission was to overcome all opposition forces (Antichrist or Dajjals) of His time, to establish the Religion of God. All of it symbolically expressed as battle between Mahdi and the Sofiyani.


But whether or not people believe in Mahdi is another story.


All Hadithes say, the Mahdi will be Rejected, imprisoned and killed.

 

[Link]

From Bahai scriptures, the Satan or the Iblis that was supposed to be gone with coming of Mahdi, is an allusion to the Dynasties of Khalifs, that had started with Muawiyyah in year 666 after Chris.
666 which is also mentioned in the Bible as Number of Satan or Beast was the year Muawiyyah Rised.
Mahdi's mission was to establish pure Religion, and destroy the System of Khalif Dynasty and false Successorship in Islam. This time, the Religion of God was to be protected against divisions hence the aforementioned Satan or the Iblis was gone.

So, the success of Mahdi's mission was to overcome all opposition forces (Antichrist or Dajjals) of His time, to establish the Religion of God. All of it symbolically expressed as battle between Mahdi and the Sofiyani.


But whether or not people believe in Mahdi is another story.


All Hadithes say, the Mahdi will be Rejected, imprisoned and killed.

Sorry I know you applied it that way. What does Satan/Iblis mean in Quran. There is still monarchies in the world. Caliphate was just a label that they succeeded the position of the Nabi (a).

I know you are applying to Caliphate, I'm asking the general meaning of the term to you. So we can see if there is consistency or it's more sophistry.

Satan existed before Adam (a) was created. This symbolic stuff is more reasons I can add to not believing in Bahai Faith. That they don't believe in Jinn and Angels and Devils in actuality, is a more disbelief and further away from the unseen worlds journey.

Authority belongs to God, there is still many people taking that authority for themselves. So I don't see false authority gone either.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sorry I know you applied it that way. What does Satan/Iblis mean in Quran. There is still monarchies in the world. Caliphate was just a label that they succeeded the position of the Nabi (a).

I know you are applying to Caliphate, I'm asking the general meaning of the term to you. So we can see if there is consistency or it's more sophistry.

Satan existed before Adam (a) was created. This symbolic stuff is more reasons I can add to not believing in Bahai Faith. That they don't believe in Jinn and Angels and Devils in actuality, is a more disbelief and further away from the unseen worlds journey.

Authority belongs to God, there is still many people taking that authority for themselves. So I don't see false authority gone either.

There is a Hadith from Imam Sadiq:

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

If we follow this guide from Imam Sadigh, we need to see how they interpreted Iblis


جابر عن أبي عبد الله 7 في قول الله تعالى ( وَاللَّيْلِ إِذا يَغْشى ) قال دولة إبليس إلى يوم القيامة وهو يوم قيام القائم ( وَالنَّهارِ إِذا تَجَلَّى ) وهو القائم إذا قام


According to this Hadith The Night is an allusion to Dynasty of Iblis, which supposed to stay till the Time of Qaim.

And the other Hadith From Muhammad makes it clear, what is meant by Dynasty of Iblis, in the verse of Quran;


عن ابن عباس قال سمعت رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وسلم) يقول اسمي في القرآن " والشمس وضحاها " واسم علي بن أبي طالب " والقمر إذا تلاها " والحسن والحسين " والنهار إذا جلاها " واسم بني أمية " والليل إذا يغشاها


In this Hadith Muhammad says "Bani Ummayih"is "the Nigh when it covers"

So which one is it?

One Hadith says, "The Night" is "Bani Ummah", the other Hadith says "the Night" is Iblis. You tell me, which one is it?

 

[danieldemol]

The Western "Christian" world is eaten up by materialism, and many of the Western Christians are becoming irreligious.

It is US capitalism that is disfunctionally greedy.

Other places in the West that are more socialist leaning are not having their problems, and the spread of irreligious has greatly benefited our societies in my view.

I believe without going on a prejudiced rant you would be hard pressed to find a way in which Abrahamic societies are more functional than non-religious societies. Even if religious societies are better you would still have to outcompete modern religions such as secular humanism for functionality in my view.

 

[Link]

Salam

The hadith says "the country/government of Iblis", did not say the night is Iblis. But I get what your saying. To me, it's more proof that Baha'allah is not it, because we are still in dark night. There is still monarchies, unjust governments, truth is not prevalent.

It can be even said in this time, people doubt God more then any time in history.

The day Imam Mahdi (a) rises is when all darkness will be gone. Imams (a) were called nights to because they were covered by falsehood and people didn't see their truth.

I am asking what is your condition. For me, the government of Iblis is still of today. Bani-Ummayad is only one set of Kahens. There is many Kahens today ruling the world. It has not gone away.

The light when it comes is supposed to bring the truth and manifest to all. The government of Iblis will come to an end with rising of the Qaim (a), I know that.

The Imam Mahdi (a) is supposed to be that light in end times, but I don't see that has happened with Baha'allah. I don't see end to evil of Iblis, Iblis is still at work.

The meaning is clear to me because I believe Iblis is an entity that leads astray. People are still lead astray, so that prophecy of the Quran has not come about. It's when truth prevails and the light of God beams the whole earth and it's people, that we can see end to falsehood and prevalence of truth.

This is why I'm asking you the condition and what Iblis is per you. Not your conclusion, but what the term Iblis refers to.

 

[Truthseeker]

Then why did baha'allah try to explain seal of Prophets in a way that means all Prophets are each other?

This shows you are paying attention to what Baha'u'llah says. Baha'u'llah was talking about Messengers, not all Prophets.