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Urantia Book Questions

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure they do

No, they don't. You need to talk to more people if you believe that every human on the planet tells those sorts of stories. You can find people on this very forum that do not think that if life exists elsewhere, it has to be microbes. You can find people on this very form that very much can wrap their minds around the idea of a universe full of life and otherworldly beings. You can find people on this very forum that don't place humans on a pedestal or have anthropocentric worldviews. You can find people on this very forum that are not attached to the idea of humans being "special" and are not disturbed by this.

Talk to more people.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
No, they don't. You need to talk to more people if you believe that every human on the planet tells those sorts of stories. You can find people on this very forum that do not think that if life exists elsewhere, it has to be microbes. You can find people on this very form that very much can wrap their minds around the idea of a universe full of life and otherworldly beings. You can find people on this very forum that don't place humans on a pedestal or have anthropocentric worldviews. You can find people on this very forum that are not attached to the idea of humans being "special" and are not disturbed by this.

Talk to more people.

There are some people who have extremely open minds. What am I to do with them? They're on the path.

Jesus didn't spend His time preaching to the rich people, He spent His time with the poor.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
There are some people who have extremely open minds. What am I to do with them? They're on the path.

I don't understand. How are the folks who aren't anthropocentric open-minded? And what is this "the" path? Aren't they walking "a" path?

Following a narrative that is not mainstream in one's culture does not make one open-minded. It makes one a minority group. Willingness to change one's mind is what makes one open-minded. If someone with an ecocentric worldview refuses to consider anthropocentric worldviews as a live option, they are closed-minded on that subject.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?

What do you think led you to that conclusion?




Nope. But @Super Universe made it sound like this sort of behavior was an inevitable outcome of religion, which is super strange to me because it is completely at odds with my own personal experiences of various religions.

I have heard of persons starting a religion, but it was based on the belief of that given person, not his religion per se. So it's hard to have a religion unless you start a religion by recruiting converts (at least one).

Religions by their very nature have to assume that they are "right". Otherwise, why bother. This can't help but eventually leading to a religiously ethnocentric position.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Right now, I'm reading The Checklist Manifesto. I also haven't finished Guns, Germs and Steel, Mark Twain's autobiography, or Robert's Rules of Order.

Can you give me any reason I should prioritize reading the Urantia Book ahead of these other books?

Two different worlds.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I have heard of persons starting a religion, but it was based on the belief of that given person, not his religion per se. So it's hard to have a religion unless you start a religion by recruiting converts (at least one).

Religions by their very nature have to assume that they are "right". Otherwise, why bother. This can't help but eventually leading to a religiously ethnocentric position.

This isn't the place to debate this (and I don't agree with you), but you might be interested in reading some of the responses in this thread: Religion Alone
That thread is not in a debate area either, should you choose to post up your thoughts in there. :D
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
I don't understand. How are the folks who aren't anthropocentric open-minded? And what is this "the" path? Aren't they walking "a" path?

Following a narrative that is not mainstream in one's culture does not make one open-minded. It makes one a minority group. Willingness to change one's mind is what makes one open-minded. If someone with an ecocentric worldview refuses to consider anthropocentric worldviews as a live option, they are closed-minded on that subject.


We're all walking "a" path but we're not all open minded and our wants and desires influence our beliefs. No one knows whether God exists or not, so, we should all say "I don't know". Instead, people are actually arguing about it. Why? Because to some people, He has to exist so they can live forever in paradise, their has to be something better. To others, God can't exist, because if He does, well, then He didn't do anything, or enough, for them and they're upset about the whole thing.

Let me give you another example, aliens. Most people have never had any alien experiences and they've never been off the earth so, their opinion should be, I don't know". Instead they will argue absolutely, positively, there can't be any aliens. Why? Because if aliens exist, then God isn't all about us and their ego takes a serious hit.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Right now, I'm reading The Checklist Manifesto. I also haven't finished Guns, Germs and Steel, Mark Twain's autobiography, or Robert's Rules of Order.

Can you give me any reason I should prioritize reading the Urantia Book ahead of these other books?
No. Do your thing.

I loved Mark Twain's autobiography. He was quite a character.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
No one knows whether God exists or not, so, we should all say "I don't know". Instead, people are actually arguing about it.

Let's pause a second. How do you know that no one knows that their gods exist? How did you decide that for other people? Are you an omnipresent, omniscient, telepathic mind reader?

Sorry, that was a bit on the nose. My point is it isn't really fair to claim that no one knows whether or not their gods exist. Having listened to a variety of theists with many different ideas about the gods, at least some of them have expressed to me that they know their gods exist. I'm not inclined to call them liars. If people did a better job of listening to each other instead of claiming that they know what someone else knows, we might have fewer arguments. :D


Let me give you another example, aliens. Most people have never had any alien experiences and they've never been off the earth so, their opinion should be, I don't know". Instead they will argue absolutely, positively, there can't be any aliens. Why? Because if aliens exist, then God isn't all about us and their ego takes a serious hit.

Can you think of any other reasons why someone might argue? I can. What about you?
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Let's pause a second. How do you know that no one knows that their gods exist? How did you decide that for other people? Are you an omnipresent, omniscient, telepathic mind reader?

Sorry, that was a bit on the nose. My point is it isn't really fair to claim that no one knows whether or not their gods exist. Having listened to a variety of theists with many different ideas about the gods, at least some of them have expressed to me that they know their gods exist. I'm not inclined to call them liars. If people did a better job of listening to each other instead of claiming that they know what someone else knows, we might have fewer arguments. :D




Can you think of any other reasons why someone might argue? I can. What about you?

How do I know that no one knows their god exists? Hopefully we're not going to argue about the dictionary's definition of the word "know". Anyhow, people believe that God exists and some believe that He does not exist. No one has been to heaven and come back to the Earth so they don't have any direct evidence of God.

Now some might believe so incredibly strong, like me, that it comes first, before everything, so they willl tell you that they "know" that God exists. Really, that's just a belief, it's not evidence. Also, many times that belief is based on a desire for God to exist and not an experience that anyone would consider proof.

Am I a telepathic mind reader? I have some abilities, yes. It takes a while and it's not always correct. No, I don't know what number you're thinking of right now. Usually, my practice is to jump the gun a bit, make an early assessment that is likely to be close but not entirely accurate, then that either disconnects the person, they usually respond with anger, or it leads to the truth.

Don't worry about hitting me in the nose. It's strong as steel. If I was afraid of getting hit I wouldn't have gotten in the ring.

Can I think of another reason why someone might argue about whether aliens exist other than it would change their idea of God? Uhh, yeah, because it would scare the bejeezes out of some people if they knew aliens were coming here and abducting humans.
 
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The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The ten commandments says that you should stone to death adulterers.
No, they don’t. Commandment Seven states “Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery”. No punishment is outlined.

Doing work on the sabbath was also punishable by stoning.
Not by the Ten Commandments. Commandment Four states “Keep Holy the Sabbath Day.” Again, no punishment was outlined.

God's "commandments" are the rules of physics,
Not in Judaism. And if not even Jesus could break the laws of physics, it would go without saying. But he did supposedly rise from the dead, and that is physically impossible.

I don't have to use "your" words. You can't get your way with the universe. It's not yours.
Your linguistic usage is wrong in the instance given. This is a fact, not an opinion.

I should stop assuming things about you? No thanks, it's fun.
Fine, but past this post I’ll simply report ad hominem from you. I’ve little patience for blatant immaturity.

I have nothing to teach YOU. No one can fill a cup that is already full.
An ignorant man thinks that all he knows,
When he sits by himself in a corner;
But never what answer to make he knows,
When others with questions come.
~Hávamál s.26


You said "believing things without solid evidence", not, "belief that is not based on proof". If you want your meaning to be clear, then use clear language.
“Solid evidence” means the same thing as “proof”. Far different than saying that “traditions” mean “rituals.” But cute try.

You want me to discuss the UB, rather than have you do your own research on it?
As I have said many times, yes.

String Theory can be simplified where children can understand it? That's my point. I did simplify the UB.
To the point of uselessness, where it was indiscernible from any Abrahamic religion. Then when pressed you said that it is too complex. If String Theory can be simplified so that a child can understand it, then you ought to be able to simplify the Urantia Book. Or, better yet, you could not treat adults like children, and simply give a condensed impression so that they know what they’re reading into. Have a little trust, rather than condescend and assume that everyone is far inferior to you.

How do I know you haven't read the UB? It's 1,800 pages, that's how I know.
So you assume, yet again. You don’t know how fast I can read. Not everyone is you, after all.

It's funny, I think you're trying to prove that God doesn't exist?
Yes, it is. Because you’re quite obviously latching onto a straw man argument (a fallacy, mind you,) rather than address the criticisms that I put forward about your book. You refuse to acknowledge my criticisms, instead asserting that I have some grudge against Christianity and your shared god. It is also funny in that I am a theist; why would I have any interest or desire to disprove your god?

Armaggedon? So that's it, you're afraid, finally, the reason you don't like Christianity.
How, again, is asking about the return of your prophet Jesus, or your motives in spreading “knowledge” fear? Try again, and this time perhaps answer the question. It will remain there, so you needn’t ask for it again.

the earth will be destroyed in about 2.8 billion years when the sun expands into a red giant.
I’m sure you mean 7.6 billion years, as is the current scientific estimation. There is also the theory that as the sun expands into a Red Giant, it will inevitably lose mass, and as such the Earth will be pushed outward into a lengthier orbit. So maybe it won’t be destroyed.

I can't understand how the universe works with outdated and wrong information? Yep, it's all wrong. Only you are right. You have everything you need to be successful in the universe. Good luck with that.
Did I say anything about me? No, you just assume so. Snide accusations make for a poor argument. No, the Urantia Book’s science is decried as outdated by modern science, and known scientific evidences.

Your book claims that the universe is hundreds of billions of years old, when the only observable evidence states 13.7 billion. But I guess “god did it” is the great trump card, right?

Your book claims that planets closer to the sun will experience a slowing of their rotation, citing Mercury. Yet Mercury shows no degrade in its rotation, remaining at a constant.

Your book also claims that the “Universal Father” is known on all planets in our local system. Extrasysytem life notwithstanding, every planet in our solar system save ours is devoid of intelligent life. This is verified not only by probes sent past the planets observing no signs of life, but also by analyzing their atmospheres (or lack thereof) and finding them inhospitable for any carbon-based life.

Your book is also incorrect in assuming that humanity thinks the Sol System is stationary, while the rest of the universe expands around us. This is plainly preposterous, as it is well acknowledged that the Sol System, and the entirety of the Milky Way galaxy, expands with the rest of the known universe.

Matter can disappear into one place, a black hole? But that does not violate the law of gravity.
If matter can be drawn into such a singularity – and it can, this has been observed – then it stands just as much to reason that ejection of matter from a similar such singularity would not violate “laws of gravity.”

I should stop straw manning? I knew you wanted to argue logic. Well, your arguments are Ad Hominem's, so there.
No, actually they are not. My arguments focus and criticize your book, not you. You, on the other hand, have quite taken to criticizing me, and making many crass assumptions in what I can only assume is an attempt to discredit me.

This isn't about God, it's about "my" book? No, it's about you not getting the life you wanted and you're really, really upset about it.
Like this. I am quite happy with the life I have, make no mistake.

Explain how nothing can expand? I didn't say nothing expanded, I said space
To clarify, you supposed space experiencing a “big bang” – a rapid expansion of matter – with no particles. Which would be nothing. So please, explain how nothing can expand.

That is the reason behind all hate, if you can put down a whole group of people, who are not like you, well, it makes you feel better about yourself.
And do you not see the parallel to what you’ve been doing here? Statements like “you won’t ascend”, words like “initiated” – these are all buzz-words indicating a held sense of superiority. If you’re no better, how can you hold the solution?

If you are an American, don't you have an American "ego"? Don't you have a sense that we are the world leaders and have more responsibility in world affairs than other nations?
No.

There are some people who have extremely open minds. What am I to do with them? They're on the path.

Apparently not, because everything that Quintessence mentioned – thinking that higher life exists elsewhere, that humans aren’t superior to the rest of nature – they apply to me. And yet you yourself have told me that I’m a “full glass”, that I won’t be “ascending” because I’m not on your path. Make up your mind.

How do I know that no one knows their god exists? … No one has been to heaven and come back to the Earth so they don't have any direct evidence of God.
Now, how do you know? You also assume that the Gods do not walk among us. This universe isn’t yours; it’s not all about you.

Am I a telepathic mind reader? I have some abilities, yes. It takes a while and it's not always correct.
So far you’re at nothing correct, telepathically. Seems to me that you more assume and project.

Religions by their very nature have to assume that they are "right". Otherwise, why bother.
Simply not true. Many religions are quite content to live and let live, not claiming any sort of “absolute truth” or condemning the others as false. Only the Abrahamic religions really do this. Why bother, then? Because a religion is a faith group, to worship ones god(s) with others who believe the same. To celebrate as a group, and build a society to thrive in. Because not all religions are “We’re right, you’re wrong” clubs.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
No, they don’t. Commandment Seven states “Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery”. No punishment is outlined.


Not by the Ten Commandments. Commandment Four states “Keep Holy the Sabbath Day.” Again, no punishment was outlined.


Not in Judaism. And if not even Jesus could break the laws of physics, it would go without saying. But he did supposedly rise from the dead, and that is physically impossible.


Your linguistic usage is wrong in the instance given. This is a fact, not an opinion.


Fine, but past this post I’ll simply report ad hominem from you. I’ve little patience for blatant immaturity.


An ignorant man thinks that all he knows,
When he sits by himself in a corner;
But never what answer to make he knows,
When others with questions come.
~Hávamál s.26



“Solid evidence” means the same thing as “proof”. Far different than saying that “traditions” mean “rituals.” But cute try.


As I have said many times, yes.


To the point of uselessness, where it was indiscernible from any Abrahamic religion. Then when pressed you said that it is too complex. If String Theory can be simplified so that a child can understand it, then you ought to be able to simplify the Urantia Book. Or, better yet, you could not treat adults like children, and simply give a condensed impression so that they know what they’re reading into. Have a little trust, rather than condescend and assume that everyone is far inferior to you.


So you assume, yet again. You don’t know how fast I can read. Not everyone is you, after all.


Yes, it is. Because you’re quite obviously latching onto a straw man argument (a fallacy, mind you,) rather than address the criticisms that I put forward about your book. You refuse to acknowledge my criticisms, instead asserting that I have some grudge against Christianity and your shared god. It is also funny in that I am a theist; why would I have any interest or desire to disprove your god?


How, again, is asking about the return of your prophet Jesus, or your motives in spreading “knowledge” fear? Try again, and this time perhaps answer the question. It will remain there, so you needn’t ask for it again.


I’m sure you mean 7.6 billion years, as is the current scientific estimation. There is also the theory that as the sun expands into a Red Giant, it will inevitably lose mass, and as such the Earth will be pushed outward into a lengthier orbit. So maybe it won’t be destroyed.


Did I say anything about me? No, you just assume so. Snide accusations make for a poor argument. No, the Urantia Book’s science is decried as outdated by modern science, and known scientific evidences.

Your book claims that the universe is hundreds of billions of years old, when the only observable evidence states 13.7 billion. But I guess “god did it” is the great trump card, right?

Your book claims that planets closer to the sun will experience a slowing of their rotation, citing Mercury. Yet Mercury shows no degrade in its rotation, remaining at a constant.

Your book also claims that the “Universal Father” is known on all planets in our local system. Extrasysytem life notwithstanding, every planet in our solar system save ours is devoid of intelligent life. This is verified not only by probes sent past the planets observing no signs of life, but also by analyzing their atmospheres (or lack thereof) and finding them inhospitable for any carbon-based life.

Your book is also incorrect in assuming that humanity thinks the Sol System is stationary, while the rest of the universe expands around us. This is plainly preposterous, as it is well acknowledged that the Sol System, and the entirety of the Milky Way galaxy, expands with the rest of the known universe.


If matter can be drawn into such a singularity – and it can, this has been observed – then it stands just as much to reason that ejection of matter from a similar such singularity would not violate “laws of gravity.”


No, actually they are not. My arguments focus and criticize your book, not you. You, on the other hand, have quite taken to criticizing me, and making many crass assumptions in what I can only assume is an attempt to discredit me.


Like this. I am quite happy with the life I have, make no mistake.


To clarify, you supposed space experiencing a “big bang” – a rapid expansion of matter – with no particles. Which would be nothing. So please, explain how nothing can expand.


And do you not see the parallel to what you’ve been doing here? Statements like “you won’t ascend”, words like “initiated” – these are all buzz-words indicating a held sense of superiority. If you’re no better, how can you hold the solution?


No.



Apparently not, because everything that Quintessence mentioned – thinking that higher life exists elsewhere, that humans aren’t superior to the rest of nature – they apply to me. And yet you yourself have told me that I’m a “full glass”, that I won’t be “ascending” because I’m not on your path. Make up your mind.


Now, how do you know? You also assume that the Gods do not walk among us. This universe isn’t yours; it’s not all about you.


So far you’re at nothing correct, telepathically. Seems to me that you more assume and project.


Simply not true. Many religions are quite content to live and let live, not claiming any sort of “absolute truth” or condemning the others as false. Only the Abrahamic religions really do this. Why bother, then? Because a religion is a faith group, to worship ones god(s) with others who believe the same. To celebrate as a group, and build a society to thrive in. Because not all religions are “We’re right, you’re wrong” clubs.

You are ignored.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
No, they don’t. Commandment Seven states “Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery”. No punishment is outlined.


Not by the Ten Commandments. Commandment Four states “Keep Holy the Sabbath Day.” Again, no punishment was outlined.


Not in Judaism. And if not even Jesus could break the laws of physics, it would go without saying. But he did supposedly rise from the dead, and that is physically impossible.


Your linguistic usage is wrong in the instance given. This is a fact, not an opinion.


Fine, but past this post I’ll simply report ad hominem from you. I’ve little patience for blatant immaturity.


An ignorant man thinks that all he knows,
When he sits by himself in a corner;
But never what answer to make he knows,
When others with questions come.
~Hávamál s.26



“Solid evidence” means the same thing as “proof”. Far different than saying that “traditions” mean “rituals.” But cute try.


As I have said many times, yes.


To the point of uselessness, where it was indiscernible from any Abrahamic religion. Then when pressed you said that it is too complex. If String Theory can be simplified so that a child can understand it, then you ought to be able to simplify the Urantia Book. Or, better yet, you could not treat adults like children, and simply give a condensed impression so that they know what they’re reading into. Have a little trust, rather than condescend and assume that everyone is far inferior to you.


So you assume, yet again. You don’t know how fast I can read. Not everyone is you, after all.


Yes, it is. Because you’re quite obviously latching onto a straw man argument (a fallacy, mind you,) rather than address the criticisms that I put forward about your book. You refuse to acknowledge my criticisms, instead asserting that I have some grudge against Christianity and your shared god. It is also funny in that I am a theist; why would I have any interest or desire to disprove your god?


How, again, is asking about the return of your prophet Jesus, or your motives in spreading “knowledge” fear? Try again, and this time perhaps answer the question. It will remain there, so you needn’t ask for it again.


I’m sure you mean 7.6 billion years, as is the current scientific estimation. There is also the theory that as the sun expands into a Red Giant, it will inevitably lose mass, and as such the Earth will be pushed outward into a lengthier orbit. So maybe it won’t be destroyed.


Did I say anything about me? No, you just assume so. Snide accusations make for a poor argument. No, the Urantia Book’s science is decried as outdated by modern science, and known scientific evidences.

Your book claims that the universe is hundreds of billions of years old, when the only observable evidence states 13.7 billion. But I guess “god did it” is the great trump card, right?

Your book claims that planets closer to the sun will experience a slowing of their rotation, citing Mercury. Yet Mercury shows no degrade in its rotation, remaining at a constant.

Your book also claims that the “Universal Father” is known on all planets in our local system. Extrasysytem life notwithstanding, every planet in our solar system save ours is devoid of intelligent life. This is verified not only by probes sent past the planets observing no signs of life, but also by analyzing their atmospheres (or lack thereof) and finding them inhospitable for any carbon-based life.

Your book is also incorrect in assuming that humanity thinks the Sol System is stationary, while the rest of the universe expands around us. This is plainly preposterous, as it is well acknowledged that the Sol System, and the entirety of the Milky Way galaxy, expands with the rest of the known universe.


If matter can be drawn into such a singularity – and it can, this has been observed – then it stands just as much to reason that ejection of matter from a similar such singularity would not violate “laws of gravity.”


No, actually they are not. My arguments focus and criticize your book, not you. You, on the other hand, have quite taken to criticizing me, and making many crass assumptions in what I can only assume is an attempt to discredit me.


Like this. I am quite happy with the life I have, make no mistake.


To clarify, you supposed space experiencing a “big bang” – a rapid expansion of matter – with no particles. Which would be nothing. So please, explain how nothing can expand.


And do you not see the parallel to what you’ve been doing here? Statements like “you won’t ascend”, words like “initiated” – these are all buzz-words indicating a held sense of superiority. If you’re no better, how can you hold the solution?


No.



Apparently not, because everything that Quintessence mentioned – thinking that higher life exists elsewhere, that humans aren’t superior to the rest of nature – they apply to me. And yet you yourself have told me that I’m a “full glass”, that I won’t be “ascending” because I’m not on your path. Make up your mind.


Now, how do you know? You also assume that the Gods do not walk among us. This universe isn’t yours; it’s not all about you.


So far you’re at nothing correct, telepathically. Seems to me that you more assume and project.


Simply not true. Many religions are quite content to live and let live, not claiming any sort of “absolute truth” or condemning the others as false. Only the Abrahamic religions really do this. Why bother, then? Because a religion is a faith group, to worship ones god(s) with others who believe the same. To celebrate as a group, and build a society to thrive in. Because not all religions are “We’re right, you’re wrong” clubs.

Name one religion that says it's alright to go believe something else because we don't know wadahell we are talking about. Kinda self defeating don't you think?
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Imagine my grief, universe.

Name one religion that says it's alright to go believe something else because we don't know wadahell we are talking about. Kinda self defeating don't you think?
Heathenry. Skepticism is highly valued, and we are encouraged to not take things at face value. We also don't go around telling people that they're wrong - Pagans in general don't do this - which is what I posted to you. Our beliefs are our beliefs. Neither do we proselytize, condemn, or judge others based on their beliefs.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
In fact, in John 15:10 he says "I have kept my Father's commandments".
Well, he claims that anyway. He also likes to redefine things so that he can claim superiority. He has coveted things that don't belong to him (the fig tree), he dishonored his parents constantly, I guess you could argue all the vandalism is like stealing, he broke the Sabbath ... he broke commandments. He just doesn't like admitting it.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Imagine my grief, universe.


Heathenry. Skepticism is highly valued, and we are encouraged to not take things at face value. We also don't go around telling people that they're wrong - Pagans in general don't do this - which is what I posted to you. Our beliefs are our beliefs. Neither do we proselytize, condemn, or judge others based on their beliefs.


Do you think you'll ever find anything that will make less or not a Pagan?
 
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