US court rules that surveillance program exposed by Snowden was illegal

[Tambourine]

I find it ironic how American patriots, citizens of a country that was founded on a series of acts that would, in their time, have been classified as Lèse Majesté i.e. treason, are so keen on labelling a man rebelling against an unlawful act of tyranny a "traitor".
It just goes to show that patriotism will always remain the handmaiden of Authoritarianism.

 

[icehorse]

We can be one or the other, but we can't be both - and this is an internal dilemma and conflict which has created a pall over the political culture for generations.

We're far from perfect, no doubt. And there are many things we do that we should be ashamed of...

AND, the fact that we can have this conversation in public is truly remarkable in the history of mankind. People from all over the world want to come here. We still have a lot going for us.

So I think we can be both appreciative AND acknowledge where we need to improve.

 

[Revoltingest]

To be a traitor to a terrorist agency which is violating human rights is a good thing.

Instead of choosing a team, you should choose principles.

I've been a traitor...depending upon whom you ask.
If for a good cause, I'm OK with it.
But no one's ever called me a "patriot".
Them's fight'n words!

 

[Revoltingest]

To be a patriot in a country which oppresses other nations would be a shame indeed.

Well, it would depend upon the flavor of patriotism.
My objection to being called one is that it smacks
of joining something with a uniform to wear.
It's too goody two shoes.

 

[pearl]

To be a traitor to a terrorist agency which is violating human rights is a good thing.

And there are always consequences to be faced for ones actions, Snowden ran away seeking help from a foreign country where he never would have had a free press to turn to. I would have more admiration for Snowden had he stood his ground taking his chances through the Courts, as did Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
The ACLU would have defended him and the finding of the Courts may have been in his favor. Was it patriotism that motivated Snowden or the love of gamming and hacking he could not resist?
Long but interesting article on Snowden and how he understands himself.

Review: Edward Snowden and the Rise of Whistle-Blower Culture in “Permanent Record”

 

[Twilight Hue]

U.S. court: Mass surveillance program exposed by Snowden was illegal



This is the part I find interesting:



So, for the longest time, the government had been lying by saying that the NSA wasn't doing this at all, but then, once they were exposed, they argue that it was necessary and played a crucial role in fighting terrorism. But if that's the case, why wouldn't they just go through proper channels in order to make these surveillance operations legal?

Is the government secretly ashamed of what it does? Is that why they conceal and deny what they do? Is it really beneficial for US national security, and if so, why wouldn't they proudly shout about it from every rooftop and proclaim "Yes, we are doing this for America"?

I think this cuts to the core of something that appears to be a serious contradiction in how Americans see their own government and country.

On the one hand, there are those who see America as an "empire" with imperialistic and malignant aspirations - and this is seen as something bad. It's a more cynical view of America.

On the other side, there are those who view America as a "shining city on the hill," a beacon of hope, a paragon of virtue which wants nothing more than to bring freedom and democracy to all the oppressed peoples of the world.

We can be one or the other, but we can't be both - and this is an internal dilemma and conflict which has created a pall over the political culture for generations.

Are we like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?

Snowden exposed a side of America few Americans really get to see, and most apparently would prefer not to see that side of America. They don't want to know that it's there.

A lot of Americans would prefer to believe that we're such a paragon of virtue, a bastion of freedom and democracy, an island of goodness in a world full of scum and villainy. But connected to that is an intense feeling of wanting to protect and secure America at all costs, which is the common justification for doing some of the things which Snowden revealed.

Its something that people always suspected anyways. I'm sure the surveillance is continuing on as always, unabated and unchallenged.

I tend to think the Government mentality is, "Yea we are watching you, so what"?

 

[Twilight Hue]

You highlight a poignant contradiction here. The whole concept of "American exceptionalism" - that we are somehow special among the world's nations and a cut above of the rest - flies in the face of how our country has actually functioned. Yes, we do represent some lofty goals, and yes, we have achieved some laudable things. But we've also done atrocious things, from giving the green light to extrajudicial black sites and torture, to deposing democratically elected world leaders, to being the only nation in history that's ever actually used a nuclear weapon on another country. Not to mention slavery, segregation, and the fact that to this day we still have "territories" whose residents (US citizens) don't have the same voting and congressional representation rights that the rest of us do. Our hyper-patriotism blinds us, I think.

Snowden should be pardoned and welcomed back with his own holiday at this point.

Snowden ran to countries like China and Russia.

I would think a pardon is out of question, hadn't he ran and faced the system head on, a pardon might have been on the table.

 

[Valjean]

Was this form of intelligence gathering post 9,11?
There are proper channels for exposing what may be illegal, choosing to do so through a foreign government is treason. I have no sympathy for Snowden, he is a traitor.

The proper channels won't work. The government already knew it was engaged in illegal surveillance. Whistleblowers usually get thrown to the dogs.

Foreign government? What foreign government? He gathered the information on his own.
He published his revelations in the Guardian because it had a history of discretion and an interest in human rights, revealing corruption and public service. Had he gone to the 'proper channels or tried publishing in an American paper he'd likely have been quietly disappeared, or arrested for espionage and his revelations disappeared.

Treason, for pointing out a crime? For risking his freedom to benefit the American people? Hadn't he sworn to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic? The NSA was acting as a domestic enemy. It was his duty to expose it.

 

[Valjean]

Snowden ran to countries like China and Russia.

No he didn't. He got stranded in Russia when the US suddenly cancelled his passport. He had no desire to move to Russia.

I would think a pardon is out of question, hadn't he ran and faced the system head on, a pardon might have been on the table.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that would have happened. .
The system had no interest in stifling Big Brother. It was Big Brother.

Maybe in fifty or sixty years history would have vindicated him, as it did Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali, but this wouldn't happen till the whistleblower was no longer a threat to the malefactors he exposed.

 

[Valjean]

And there are always consequences to be faced for ones actions, Snowden ran away seeking help from a foreign country where he never would have had a free press to turn to. I would have more admiration for Snowden had he stood his ground taking his chances through the Courts, as did Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
The ACLU would have defended him and the finding of the Courts may have been in his favor. Was it patriotism that motivated Snowden or the love of gamming and hacking he could not resist?
Long but interesting article on Snowden and how he understands himself.

Review: Edward Snowden and the Rise of Whistle-Blower Culture in “Permanent Record”

He did not run to Russia seeking help. He landed there only to catch a connecting flight. Luckily for him, America ironically stranded him in one of the few places that wouldn't cave to American political pressure.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No he didn't. He got stranded in Russia when the US suddenly cancelled his passport. He had no desire to move to Russia.

I would think a pardon is out of question, hadn't he ran and faced the system head on, a pardon might have been on the table.

Yeah, that would have happened. .
The system had no interest in stifling Big Brother. It was Big Brother.

Maybe in fifty or sixty years history would have vindicated him, as it did Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali, but this wouldn't happen till the whistleblower was no longer a threat to the malefactors he exposed.

No. Thats a lame excuse. There's something called turning oneself in. You don't get 'stranded' under those circumstances.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Like how Chelsea Manning was pardoned, before being thrown back in the cell for not keeping her mouth shut?

Chelsea wasn't 'thrown back in' .

That was a seperate case of contempt of court years later.

Be honest please.

 

[pearl]

Western press is allowed to organize interviews with Snowden in Russia.

I realize that, not my point which Snowden chose to run to a country which never would have allowed him a free press coverage to expose anything.

So I take it you love Chelsea Manning, who has endured unjust detention and torture because of her whistle blowing? Whistleblower protections are a joke and Obama (and Trump today) would do anything they could to put Snowden behind bars if he would return.

In January 2017, a Justice Department source said that Manning was on President Obama's short list for a possible commutation.[209] On January 17, 2017, President Obama commuted all but four months of Manning's remaining sentence.[8][210] In a press conference held on January 18, Obama stated that Manning's original 35-year prison sentence was "very disproportionate relative to what other leakers have received" and that "it makes sense to commute—and not pardon—her sentence

On January 26, 2017, in her first column for The Guardian since the commutation, Manning lamented that President Obama's political opponents consistently refused to compromise, resulting in "very few permanent accomplishments" during his time in office. As The Guardian summarized it, she saw Obama's legacy as "a warning against not being bold enough".[213] In response, President Donald Trump tweeted that Manning was an "ungrateful traitor" and should "never have been released".[214]
Chelsea Manning - Wikipedia

 

[pearl]

He published his revelations in the Guardian because it had a history of discretion and an interest in human rights, revealing corruption and public service. Had he gone to the 'proper channels or tried publishing in an American paper he'd likely have been quietly disappeared, or arrested for espionage and his revelations disappeared.

Really? It worked for Daniel Ellsberg and John Kerry.

Treason, for pointing out a crime? For risking his freedom to benefit the American people? Hadn't he sworn to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic? The NSA was acting as a domestic enemy. It was his duty to expose it.

And to except the consequences, he ran for cover, ironically, to a country that allows no such freedom of the press.

 

[pearl]

He did not run to Russia seeking help. He landed there only to catch a connecting flight. Luckily for him, America ironically stranded him in one of the few places that wouldn't cave to American political pressure.

Irrelevant where he intended to run to.

 

[pearl]

Russia has done nothing to silence Snowden, the US has done everything to do so and has spread propaganda to paint him as though he has no virtue on the basis that he did not submit to western authoritarianism.

He refused to submit to the rule of law and the avenues open to him within the law.

 

[Twilight Hue]

She was imprisoned for over a year because she refused to testify against wikileaks. She also was given a quarter of a million dollar fine. She was/is not allowed to legally discuss the content of many of her leaks publically or she can be thrown in prison. She was held in confinement in such terrible conditions that she attempted suicide multiple times until eventually she was released, but her speech is still restricted.


This is how the US treats whistle-blowers.

I hope they didn't waterboard Chelsa. That would have been really over the line.

 

[Stevicus]

He refused to submit to the rule of law and the avenues open to him within the law.

The point is, the government itself was flouting the law. What's a whistleblower to do under those circumstances?

 

[Valjean]

No. Thats a lame excuse. There's something called turning oneself in. You don't get 'stranded' under those circumstances.

Yes, you get arrested and disappeared.

 

[Valjean]

Really? It worked for Daniel Ellsberg and John Kerry.

And to except the consequences, he ran for cover, ironically, to a country that allows no such freedom of the press.

"Proper channels" may work for violations of regulations and petty crimes that don't threaten the system as a whole, but threaten major federal initiatives or the power elite and you're likely to end up in prison, and your attempted reforms undone.

It also helps to be high-profile, influential or rich. Such people are more difficult to quietly throw under the bus.

Activists who turn themselves in are no longer activists. Their beneficial role is ended. Their work is in vain.

He refused to submit to the rule of law and the avenues open to him within the law.

The avenues open to him were shams. Laws encouraging and rewarding whistleblowing are ineffectual. Whistleblowing on government, social or industrial abuse usually ends badly for the whistlers, in the end.