US Government Shutdown

[maninthewilderness]

If you're right about this, why are there people out there who disagree with you?

There are always deviations from the norm.
And there are tons of lazy freeloaders who are envious of those who have more than they.

 

[maninthewilderness]

You don't remember this thread where you spent the whole thing arguing against an increase in minimum wage? So now you are saying wealthy people deserve to be paid for their hard work, but people who make minimum wage don't?

So you think that being against a federal minimum wage means that one supports "slave wages"?

You could not be more wrong.

No one is forced to work for minimum wage.

If a person settles for minimum wage than that is their choice.
They cannot claim to be a "slave".
Slaves don't have the freedom to seek employment elsewhere.

 

[Falvlun]

So you think that being against a federal minimum wage means that one supports "slave wages"?

You could not be more wrong.

No one is forced to work for minimum wage.

If a person settles for minimum wage than that is their choice.
They cannot claim to be a "slave".
Slaves don't have the freedom to seek employment elsewhere.

It is just as hyperbolic to claim that we are slaves as it is to claim that we are perfectly free to obtain higher wages.

 

[freethinker44]

I thought he was saying that the wealthy have the right not to work, complete access to everyone else's work, and give as little as possible to motivate everyone else to work.

Let's not forget that some "work" is far more valuable - at least in our culture - than other "work." People at the bottom who put in far more effort and dedication into their three jobs couldn't make as much in their entire lifetime as someone sitting on their bum in a corner office makes in a day or two of clicking on a mouse. Heck, returns on investments for some of these folks is larger than a worker can make in years.

Right. People talk about "parasitic freeloaders" I immediately think of people like Warren Buffet. At least he acknowledges it though.

The idea that the capitalist market economy is fair is a fantasy, and I'm entertained by the fact that it's promoted by the middle class.

I know it. It's physically impossible for everyone to be wealthy. If everyone worked incredibly hard and sacrificed everything and everything else being equal, there would still be failures. That's what a society built around competition does. It creates losers. The people aren't losers, society has made them that way. There seems to be this disconnect with reality when someone can say that someone else who works two or three jobs and still can't support themselves is a lazy freeloader.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Pity Biden and Obama couldn't be impeached for good measure. There is still time for that though.

You raise a good point, I used to hear people wanting to impeach GWB almost every day. Obama does alot of the same stuff and folks just don't care.

 

[maninthewilderness]

It is just as hyperbolic to claim that we are slaves as it is to claim that we are perfectly free to obtain higher wages.

What's stopping you?

 

[Revoltingest]

It is just as hyperbolic to claim that we are slaves as it is to claim that we are perfectly free to obtain higher wages.

While the slavery claim is bogus, we indeed are free to seek higher wages.
I know. I did it, & it worked.
Of course, there are people who just aren't worth more than what they're getting.
That's their lot in life...not a condition of enslavement.

 

[maninthewilderness]

It's physically impossible for everyone to be wealthy.

Not true.
It is not physically impossible.
First you would have to define the term "wealthy".
Wealth itself is endless.
It's not a limited cake where one is poor because someone else took their piece of cake.

"I would be a rich man today if it weren't for Oprah and Bill Gates! They took my share of the wealth! "

If everyone worked incredibly hard and sacrificed everything and everything else being equal, there would still be failures. That's what a society built around competition does. It creates losers. The people aren't losers, society has made them that way.

No, nature creates losers and winners.
If a lion kills a gazelle, then the lion is the winner.
And if some hyenas take that gazelle from the lion, then the lion becomes the loser.
This is not something created by mankind, this is just the natural order of things.

This IS something created by mankind:
Some folks will work for what they want, and others will beg for what they want, and others will try to create laws that force others to give them what they want.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know it. It's physically impossible for everyone to be wealthy. If everyone worked incredibly hard and sacrificed everything and everything else being equal, there would still be failures. That's what a society built around competition does. It creates losers. The people aren't losers, society has made them that way. There seems to be this disconnect with reality when someone can say that someone else who works two or three jobs and still can't support themselves is a lazy freeloader.

You cannot legislate that everyone is a winner.
It's even worst than giving every child a trophy for participating.

Edit: "worst" should'a been "worse".

 

[Reverend Rick]

You cannot legislate that everyone is a winner.
It's even worst than giving every child a trophy for participating.

That is the biggest disservice our schools do to the children. When they get into the real world they cannot function.

Schools never mentioned to them they cannot make careers out of entry level jobs either.

So many folks go to college and study things they like or interest them as well and borrow alot of money doing it.

Did anyone counsel them that you need to study something that will put money in your pocket later?

 

[freethinker44]

You cannot legislate that everyone is a winner.

Nor should we. But we can legislate an even playing field. We can make it so it isn't a winner take all game. We can even make so it isn't about winning, just everyone gets what they put in. It's not that now.

I have been saying for a while now that we shouldn't raise minimum wage. We should instead make a maximum wage.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nor should we. But we can legislate an even playing field. We can make it so it isn't a winner take all game. We can even make so it isn't about winning, just everyone gets what they put in. It's not that now.

Losers don't put in much...often nothing at all.
By your method, they'd starve

I have been saying for a while now that we shouldn't raise minimum wage. We should instead make a maximum wage.

I'll wager your left jewel that you don't make much (less than $500K/yr). Tis envy I sense.

 

[maninthewilderness]

Nor should we. But we can legislate an even playing field. We can make it so it isn't a winner take all game. We can even make so it isn't about winning, just everyone gets what they put in. It's not that now.

Actually, you can't legislate an "even playing field" either.
This is because some people are more intelligent than others.
You can offer the same economic opportunity and same education opportunity to two people, but if one is clever and the other is an idiot, you will not have a level playing field.
The liberals think that every poor person is poor because they were held down by the wealthy.
And they think that the wealthy only got wealthy by stealing from others.
They simply cannot fathom that people can succeed without trampling others or without a government handout.

I have been saying for a while now that we shouldn't raise minimum wage. We should instead make a maximum wage.

This reminds me of an old joke:

"Before the revolution the wealthy were very happy and the poor were very miserable.
After the revolution we are all equally miserable."


The liberals always want to punish people for being successful.
They don't seem to understand that wealthy people create jobs.
How many people do you think work for Donald Trump?
He is responsible for the employment of thousands of people.
And he pays a helluva lot in taxes.
How many paychecks do you think Oprah has signed in her lifetime?

 

[freethinker44]

I'll wager your left jewel that you don't make much (less than $500K/yr). Tis envy I sense.

No, I'm not in the top 1%. And it's not envy because I would give it away if I got to that point. I'm right where I want to be, my future looks good. But I did grow up extremely poor caring for my sisters while my mom worked 12 hours a day in a factory and it still wasn't even close to enough to live off of (it was about $250 a week, and not 40 years ago when that was a good paycheck, this was the 90s).

It's kind of offensive when people who never had to experience that say we deserved that because we are lazy parasites, even though the only assistance we got was the free school lunch program. I used to hate when we had half days in school, that meant I didn't eat. I guess you could we deserved it because my mom was just paying for her irresponsible decisions, which was to get pregnant with me, and that wasn't something chose, her decision was to not abort me. So she is a lazy parasite for accidentally getting pregnant with me and choosing not to abort, while some celebrity who is famous for being born rich would be called a mogul and given a reality show for it.

If you want to call that envy then sure, I'll play along.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I'm not in the top 1%. And it's not envy because I would give it away if I got to that point.

It's very easy to fantasize about generosity when you aren't actually facing the reality of giving away all your
income above some set amount. So you're really being generous with someone else's money...possibly mine!

I'm right where I want to be, my future looks good. But I did grow up extremely poor caring for my sisters while my mom worked 12 hours a day in a factory and it still wasn't even close to enough to live off of (it was about $250 a week, and 40 years ago when that was a good paycheck, this was the 90s).
It's kind of offensive when people who never had to experience that say we deserved that because we are lazy parasites, even though the only assistance we got was the free school lunch program. I used to hate when we had half days in school, that meant I didn't eat. I guess you could we deserved it because my mom was just paying for her irresponsible decisions, which was to get pregnant with me, and that wasn't something chose, her decision was to not abort me. So she is a lazy parasite for accidentally getting pregnant with me and choosing not to abort, while some celebrity who is famous for being born rich would be called a mogul and given a reality show for it.
If you want to call that envy then sure, I'll play along.

Envy....& enmity.

Btw, I'm really trying to cut back on my snarky personal observations, so don't expect quite so many from here on in.
(Of course, I won't stop entirely. Yes, I know I'm a very flawed person.)

 

[freethinker44]

That's a very easy thing to fantasize about when you aren't actually facing the reality of giving away all your income above some set amount.

I would wager your left jewel that I would. Money is completely valueless to me. Even gold and jewels are worthless to me.

I started day-trading in the stock market about a year ago. I did pretty well in the month or two that I did it, making 25 to 50 percent returns. but I quit doing it because I kind of got depressed. I couldn't see myself sitting at a computer collecting money like Warren Buffet or something. I felt like I was wasting my life making more money than I ever made in my life.

Also, it is pretty much stealing, day-trading is. I didn't invest in a business or product, I put my foot in the door, collected some money that other people invested while it was doing well and even when it didn't I could still make money, and then got out before it tanked or watched it tank and still collected a paycheck. The whole thing felt dirty.

So yeah, I guarantee I would give away wealth. I have no interest in being wealthy.

 

[Revoltingest]

I would wager your left jewel that I would. Money is completely valueless to me. Even gold and jewels are worthless to me.

I started day-trading in the stock market about a year ago. I did pretty well in the month or two that I did it, making 25 to 50 percent returns. but I quit doing it because I kind of got depressed. I couldn't see myself sitting at a computer collecting money like Warren Buffet or something. I felt like I was wasting my life making more money than I ever made in my life.

Also, it is pretty much stealing, day-trading is. I didn't invest in a business or product, I put my foot in the door, collected some money that other people invested while it was doing well and even when it didn't I could still make money, and then got out before it tanked or watched it tank and still collected a paycheck. The whole thing felt dirty.

If only you'd kept at day trading, you'd have begun feeling less guilty...due to the
statistically inevitable losses. Day trading sounds boring in addition to being useless.

 

[freethinker44]

If only you'd kept at day trading, you'd have begun feeling less guilty...due to the
statistically inevitable losses. Day trading sounds boring in addition to being useless.

Oh I lost. Pretty big sometimes. But the gains more than made up the loss. Once I lost 5000 in a day, but I made 6 or 7000 throughout the week, so it was still a pretty good week. And it is boring, so, so boring. It's useless to society, but if your only goal is to make money then it's pretty useful.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh I lost. Pretty big sometimes. But the gains more than made up the loss. Once I lost 5000 in a day, but I made 6 or 7000 throughout the week, so it was still a pretty good week. And it is boring, so, so boring. It's useless to society, but if your only goal is to make money then it's pretty useful.

I've known guys who tried it & felt that way. Then they reached a point where the losses caught up, & they realized it wasn't profitable in the long run. There's a problem here. If there's really a method to make reliable money with a buy & sell algorithm, then it would eventually be used by so many people that the margins disappear. And I don't think you stumbled upon a method unknown to the pros. Nevertheless, I'd say you made a good decision to quit it.

 

[maninthewilderness]

It's kind of offensive when people who never had to experience that say we deserved that because we are lazy parasites,....

Never assume what others have experienced.
Not everyone who criticizes those who game our social welfare programs was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

I grew up poor, and I have seen first hand the abuses of the welfare system.
Charities are a good thing.
People voluntarily giving to those in need is a good thing.
Family taking care of family is a good thing.

But the federal government taking the tax-payer's money and redistributing it to those whom "the government" deems to be in need is NOT a good thing.