Us Soldier guilty of killing Afghan Civilians

[Bismillah]

in as much as the invasion toppled Saddam and let the previously dissenchanted enemies fight each other yes i do realise that

So really I don't understand the hypothetical question that seems to defend the troop presence in Iraq. Wouldn't you expect the military to prepare for this exact thing to happen, after all the Kurds and Shiites weren't going to play nice the Sunnis after Saddam was deposed.

 

[Bismillah]

Combat and war situations bring out both the best and worst of human nature.

The good is vastly imbalanced by the bad.

As the mother of three active duty military members, and having spent the vast majority of my life around active duty military as a daughter, wife, and mother of those who serve their country, I can truthfully say that the VAST majority of airmen, soldiers, sailors, and marines I know are exemplary people. However, I've also known a few really awful men and women who have been in the military.

This doesn't mean much except that of the military personnel you've met they were generally good likable people. That of course does nothing to prove their sanity and mental condition. This could be written off as the PR face of the military in the eyes of the public.

I don't think the problem is the military specifically, but larger mechanisms at work. Everytime before war the government makes sure to desensitize the enemy and make them appear less than human. Through propaganda played in the news to racial epitaphs created for the unfortunate individuals about to be invaded, the humanity of the enemy must be repressed. When this happens people become really nonchalant in their approach to many things, such as the brutal murder of civilians.

 

[kai]

So really I don't understand the hypothetical question that seems to defend the troop presence in Iraq. Wouldn't you expect the military to prepare for this exact thing to happen, after all the Kurds and Shiites weren't going to play nice the Sunnis after Saddam was deposed.

Well that my friend in my opinion was the greatest mistake of all , not knowing this was going to blow sky high. or if they did know how reckless that was to invade knowing full well that a civil war was an almost certain eventuality.

 

[.lava]

Us didnt and does not give two hoots for the sectarian violence, If there was no oil there, Us wouldn't have even interfered.

i think you are right

.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Kai, you realize half the sectarian violence you now see is a direct result of the invasion of Iraq?

Suppose no one ever invaded Iraq. Suppose Saddam and his sons/heirs died suddenly and the Baath party lost control of the country. Do you think there would not have been a civil war?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Spinkles, please point to where it says the Defence Squads that disappeared were Sunni.

As kai pointed out, from your post #57:

"The strategy of using primarily Shi'a and Kurdish military and police commando units to suppress Sunni insurgents was adopted after a key turning point in the war in April 2004, when Civil Defence Corps units throughout the Sunni region essentially disappeared overnight during an insurgent offensive."

 

[Bismillah]

Suppose no one ever invaded Iraq. Suppose Saddam and his sons/heirs died suddenly and the Baath party lost control of the country. Do you think there would not have been a civil war?

That sure is a lot of unrealistic suppositions. Not to mention that the sectarian violence that was caused by Saddam and the Baath's also leads back to America.

 

[Kathryn]

If there was no oil there, Us wouldn't have even interfered.

You do realize, don't you, that the Arab nations have cooperated fully in the US exploration and development of the oil industry in the Middle East - that Arab leaders and nations have profited HUGELY from US investment in that industry, and that Arab leaders actively seek and support continuing US investment in the oil industry in their nations?

It's not like the US is going over there and stealing the oil. Nor are US companies raping the land in order to get to the oil. They are investing in both the industry AND the countries - schools, infrastructure, roads, jobs, etc.

Of course, it doesn't help that so many Arab rulers and leaders are so corrupt that the money rarely makes it down the food chain to the common people of their countries.

 

[dogsgod]

Oh, it's Arab leaders that are corrupt. Thank you for making that distinction.

 

[kai]

That sure is a lot of unrealistic suppositions. Not to mention that the sectarian violence that was caused by Saddam and the Baath's also leads back to America.

and once again its easier to lay all the blame for the failings in the the Arab world on the great Satan instead the very unpalatable choice of laying some blame on fellow Arabs.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

That sure is a lot of unrealistic suppositions. Not to mention that the sectarian violence that was caused by Saddam and the Baath's also leads back to America.

Okay let me rephrase my question: suppose no one ever invaded Iraq. Paint a picture for me of how Iraq would have someday transitioned from Baath party rule, which favored Sunnis and brutalized Shi'as and Kurds, to an Iraq without sectarian conflict. Explain to me how things would have unfolded between the Iraqi factions if Saddam and his sons had not been deposed by foreign forces.

 

[Bismillah]

Okay let me rephrase my question: suppose no one ever invaded Iraq. Paint a picture for me of how Iraq would have someday transitioned from Baath party rule, which favored Sunnis and brutalized Shi'as and Kurds, to an Iraq without sectarian conflict. Explain to me how things would have unfolded between the Iraqi factions if Saddam and his sons had not been deposed by foreign forces.

Do you forget that Saddam was bankrolled and maintained his ruling position through the support of the West?

 

[Kathryn]

Oh, it's Arab leaders that are corrupt. Thank you for making that distinction.

Are you saying they're not?

 

[kai]

Do you forget that Saddam was bankrolled and maintained his ruling position through the support of the West?

i don't think anyone forgets that but do you forget he was also supported financially by other Arab states.

 

[Bismillah]

i don't think anyone forgets that but do you forget he was also supported financially by other Arab states.

kai half the Arab states are implicitly sponsoring terrorism and regularly flaunt human rights violations, what I think is more significant is that Saddam was bought to power and kept it largely through the help American aid.

 

[kai]

kai half the Arab states are implicitly sponsoring terrorism and regularly flaunt human rights violations, what I think is more significant is that Saddam was bought to power and kept it largely through the help American aid.

why is the US aid only significant and not Arab or Soviet aid

 

[Bismillah]

why is the US aid only significant and not Arab or Soviet aid

Basically it's more significant, at least in my eyes, when the self declared leader of the free world and democracy funds authoritarian regimes, while full well knowing to what purpose their aid is being used for.

In other words I expect more from the U.S than I do from the Saudis.

 

[kai]

Basically it's more significant, at least in my eyes, when the self declared leader of the free world and democracy funds authoritarian regimes, while full well knowing to what purpose their aid is being used for.

In other words I expect more from the U.S than I do from the Saudis.

Theres an old Arab saying it goes something like this:

the enemy of my enemy is my friend

at the time Iraq was seen by the US,western countries, Arab states and the Soviets as a bulwark to resist the kind of revolution that engulfed Iran.

which reminds me of a western saying that goes something like this:

politicians make strange bedfellows

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Do you forget that Saddam was bankrolled and maintained his ruling position through the support of the West?

(1) Please answer my question.

(2) My understanding is that Western influence did not bring Saddam to power originally. He was supported for a time because he was enemies with Iran and the Soviets, but that did not last. He certainly didn't maintain his power due to Western help between 1991 and 2003 did he? The West fought two wars with him, established a no-fly zone, and imposed sanctions. In the 1990's Saddam tried to assassinate former Pres. Bush.

(3) Please answer my question.

 

[dogsgod]

Are you saying they're not?

I don't view Arab leaders as corrupt nor do I view black people as thieves. What are you saying?