Usa #1?

[Father Heathen]

I already answered your question - now answer mine, Father Heathen. What do you admire and appreciate about the United States?

Besides the potential to serve as the world benchmark for rights, liberty, equality, justice and democracy, I also like the value and importance placed upon speech and expression, and the level of creativity its culture allows.

 

[Kathryn]

Kathryn, you seem unable to distinguish between loathing the excesses of our government and hating our country. Have you ever asked yourself why you think the government is the country?

I haven't asked myself this because I don't think this.

In fact, I think nearly the opposite of this.

Many of the quotes I posted from this thead were disdainful of the US in GENERAL and the people of the US implicitly. That was the point of my ONE liner (out of the several posts and many lines I've written on this thread) that suddenly everyone seems so fixated on.

Sunstone, what do you love about the United States?

 

[Kathryn]

Besides the potential to serve as the world benchmark for rights, liberty, equality, justice and democracy, I also like the value and importance placed upon speech and expression, and the level of creativity its culture allows.

Fantastic, and I'm glad to hear it. Thank you for your mature and respectful response to my question. I never expected less from you.

All I was looking for in my one liner was some balance to the picture, especially from US citizens who live here and experience the bounty of this nation on a daily basis.

I admit that when I wrote that post, I was frustrated after having read through page after page of negativity.

 

[linwood]

I already answered your question - now answer mine, Father Heathen. What do you admire and appreciate about the United States?

I wasn`t asked but I`ll answer.

I love that I am free to do what I want when I want.
To say what I want when I want.
To associate with who I want when I want.

These things I appreciate, value, and fear the loss of.

 

[Kathryn]

I wasn`t asked but I`ll answer.

I love that I am free to do what I want when I want.
To say what I want when I want.
To associate with who I want when I want.

These things I appreciate, value, and fear the loss of.

Thanks, Linwood - didn't mean to leave you out.

I haven't meant to offend anyone - just got pretty frustrated reading through the thread.

 

[linwood]

Thanks, Linwood - didn't mean to leave you out.

I haven't meant to offend anyone - just got pretty frustrated reading through the thread.

No offense taken.

I appreciate the balance, I need it sometimes.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone, what do you love about the United States?

That outside of a few of our cesspools you are seldom asked to prove you love your country. Asking people to prove they love their country seems to be an occupation by the trashier elements of our society. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they probably are too arrogant to ever consider apologizing for their gross offense against decency. I have nothing but contempt for such people. Nothing but contempt.

 

[Kathryn]

That outside of a few of our cesspools you are seldom asked to prove you love your country. Asking people to prove they love their country seems to be an occupation by the trashier elements of our society. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they probably are too arrogant to ever consider apologizing for their gross offense against decency. I have nothing but contempt for such people. Nothing but contempt.

Wow, this reminds me of the following scenario:

"Honey, what do you love about me?"

"Well, I love it when you SHUT YOUR FAT MOUTH AND STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY WAY. I like it when you DON'T ASK ME WHAT I LOVE ABOUT YOU."

Are you implying that I am asking you to "prove you love the United States?" You don't have to prove anything to me. You can say you don't like anything about the US. You can say you're undecided. You can say whatever you want. I was simply asking for clarification/

Maybe I should rephrase the question.

Sunstone, what, if anything, do you love about the United States? And there are no right or wrong answers, because this would be simply your own personal opinion.

 

[Twilight Hue]

In what aspect do you think it is the best?
In what aspect do you think it is the worst?

I like the fact that you can travel place to place without undue or random questioning from the authorities, and the fact that if a set of laws bothers you enough, there are other states you can go to where the same or similar laws are more tolerant or non-existent without enduring personal penalties or loss of freedom.

The worst aspect is the allowance for non-persons (ie corporations/special interests) to influence politics and policy. Its a raging cancer to the entire U.S. and the practice of lobbying by corporate entities and similar efforts should be eliminated outright.

Why do you think it is the best?

Because voicing dissension and displeasure towards the government doesn't get you fined, imprisoned, or killed and if such does happen (and it has), there is legal recourse for individual citizens. Also the quality of life for most Americans is still very good in way of food, essential health needs, protection from foreign powers, and shelter. For now anyways.

Arguments from emotion are not rational except for the argument that "this is the best country in the world because I am happy here" but that is still a weak argument for making the international claim that it is the best since by that thinking you do no allow an measurable component to enter the process of consideration. Also, I would imagine that most Americans have not actually tried living anywhere else which means that for all they know they might be happier somewhere else.

That may be true to an extent but human emotion should be considered to a degree. After all, the pursuit of happiness is why people still come to America, and why a lot of people regard America still in spite of the problems, as one of the greatest nations on Earth to go to and live out their lives.

 

[sandandfoam]

I guess this is the "I Hate the USA" thread - and I feel very out of place here.

It is undeniable that the USA is currently doing many things in many parts of the world which stand in stark opposition to the values which it claims to value, cherish and uphold.
I have posted specific instances. The first ammendment and the pursuit of Assange is currently in the headlines. Democracy v the Saudi Royal Family. Freedom -v- Special rendition aka kidnap and torture.
The hundreds of thousands of dead from wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - madness when the USA gave the world Saddam and the Taliban.

When I meet an American citizen I am predisposed towards them and expect to like them. I like and admire American culture. If it weren't for the restrictions imposed by the government I would surely visit.
When I pick up a news paper and read about the actions of the American government I expect to hear about some horror, excess or loss of freedom. It frankly scares me that the heavy fisted ogre that is the US government has access to nuclear power.

If criticising a blundering, deadly attitude to the world by an incompetent government is hatred of the USA - guilty. Ironic, given that freedom to express such opinions is what is put forward as America's gift to the world.

If blind following, subservience and loyalty is the mark of love for America it has morphed into it's worst enemy.
For my part I am heartened by the many many Americans I see willing to challenge the excesses done by government in their name. Indeed I consider them American patriots and offer my respect for these people as a counter to your proposition that I hate America. I do not. But I am not blind to the actions of your government.

 

[kai]

No point you guys arguing about the USA when we all know England is the number one country in the universe.

 

[Valjean]

If you want a healthy body you go to a Dr and pay her to find flaws and criticise.

Sweeping your country's failings under the carpet does not benefit the country or make you a patriot!

 

[kai]

If you want a healthy body you go to a Dr and pay her to find flaws and criticise.

Sweeping your country's failings under the carpet does not benefit the country or make you a patriot!

I think democracies are kind of self healing really theres a tendency to get voted out when people are dissatisfied. I think voting goes a long way to being a patriot.

 

[Valjean]

But people don't vote out those who cause the problems, nor do they address the problematic policies. They just vote out whomever's in charge at the time or whomever fails to complain loudly.

 

[jarofthoughts]

I like the fact that you can travel place to place without undue or random questioning from the authorities, and the fact that if a set of laws bothers you enough, there are other states you can go to where the same or similar laws are more tolerant or non-existent without enduring personal penalties or loss of freedom.

But that kind of freedom is found elsewhere as well. As a European I am free to travel anywhere within the EU I please and I can live and work wherever I want to.

The worst aspect is the allowance for non-persons (ie corporations/special interests) to influence politics and policy. Its a raging cancer to the entire U.S. and the practice of lobbying by corporate entities and similar efforts should be eliminated outright.

I agree with that.

Because voicing dissension and displeasure towards the government doesn't get you fined, imprisoned, or killed and if such does happen (and it has), there is legal recourse for individual citizens. Also the quality of life for most Americans is still very good in way of food, essential health needs, protection from foreign powers, and shelter. For now anyways.

That is also found in most European countries.

That may be true to an extent but human emotion should be considered to a degree. After all, the pursuit of happiness is why people still come to America, and why a lot of people regard America still in spite of the problems, as one of the greatest nations on Earth to go to and live out their lives.

Happiness is a very arbitrary quality to measure, although it has been attempted. I present to you the World Database of Happiness.
By comparison the numbers for USA and say, Norway come out to about the same whereas Finland and Sweden has us both beat, albeit not by much.
The problem with measuring happiness as a factor is that ignorance can play a very substantial role and what you measure is actually a mass of personal opinions, i.e. not something that can be objectively measured.
If people THINK they have it better than anyone else they will be happy with that, whether they in fact do have it better or not.

I think one of the reasons why the US is so popular as a country to migrate to is because it is so well known and that it is, in fact, a lot better than many places in the world.

 

[Kathryn]

First of all, I'm not talking smack about Scandinavian countries with what I'm about to say.

But it's a bit skewered to try to compare the tiny, and largely homogenous, Scandinavian countries to the huge population, diversity, and challenges of a country as large as the United States.

Socialism and even communism can work very well in small, homogenous groups. People who largely share a common background, history, religion (or lack thereof), genetic pool, and culture tend to be easier to guide, lead, inspire, and even control.

The US presents a plethora of challenges that simply aren't present in the Scandinavian countries - and never will be.

I'm glad that Scandinavians apparently are such a happy bunch of people. I wish them great success and joy.

However, I simply wouldn't want to live there, and apparently lots of other people don't want to live there either, or the immigration rates would be higher and the population would be more diverse.

And yet, people continue to immigrate, legally or otherwise, in massive numbers to the United States every year. Voluntarily - and bringing their hopes and dreams along with them.

What some people mistakenly think is "blind patriotism" is often simply a love for and pride in this great, sprawling giant of a nation. I don't know a single US citizen or resident who thinks that we're a perfect nation or people - that's ridiculous. But we are a unique bunch, with a vibrant, hugely energetic, rambunctious history which differs widely from any European country's history. This - like, for instance, Australia's history - imparts a unique perspective on the world in general. Of course, we're all shaped by our environment, and that's why I think that anyone's perspective can be widened and bettered by traveling as much as possible, and closely studying other peoples' and nations' perspective.

I like a lot about European countries. In fact, my husband and I are planning a big trip in a few months through five EU countries (which we've visited often in the past) and we're really looking forward to it.

And we'll be very happy to get back home afterwards to the US, and our beloved Texas.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec and Father Heathen - what do you love about the USA? What areas do you think the USA excels in?

Sunstone, what about you? Do you think the USA has any redeeming qualities?

If you're from the US, how many years of your life have you LIVED in other countries?

If you're not from the US, how many years of your life have you LIVED in the US?

See - visiting somewhere and LIVING somewhere are different. A few days in another country can give you a glimpse into other lifestyles, but living there for months or years is a whole other matter.

I've lived in other countries, and traveled extensively throughout the world. My husband has lived for months at a time in Africa, the Middle East, Southeast Asia, China, the Scandinavian countries, the UK, etc. and I have learned a lot from his experiences in those places as well as my own life experiences in other countries.

I've experienced some things in other countries that I truly appreciate, and wish we had more of here in the US.

But overall, in spite of our flaws, I love the United States - and not because I am blinded by "empty, ignorant patriotism" or stupidity or naievete. Sorry, but you can't live the life I've led and be either naieve, uninformed, or full of empty patriotism.

My love for my country is rooted in gratitude and appreciation. I guess I'm just a positive sort of person.

It's impossible to say that ANY country is "#1" overall. In fact, that's sort of a ridiculous position to try to claim.

But as a US citizen, I'm glad to claim the United States as my home, and I am proud to be an American. I'd hope that everyone could say the same about their own country and citizenship.

If not, move here - there's plenty of opportunity for anyone who's willing to work hard and honestly.

you know kathryn, that's a good question. i know that i call this country home. and just like any other home you take it for granted. however if it's a dysfunctional home things need to be dealt with. yes, this country can pull it's self together. i remember the general sense after 9/11 of what really mattered in life. as i said this is my home, as it is yours and i understand the why you would take offense but at the same time it's our home.

i married a swede, never really lived abroad maybe the longest would be 3 months but i spend a lot of time there over the past 15 yrs and i get the "general" sense what living there is like and i agree once you live somewhere you never know what it's like.

the difference i see between americans and swedes, in my case, is that americans think they will be rich before they retire. our focus isn't on the here and now but rather on the american dream. abroad, even in cuba, where i have also been, people live in the here and now. i really believe that is a fundamental. sort of like christianity, instead of living for the here and now, there is this paradise waiting for you undermining the importance of the moment.

 

[Kathryn]

Hi, Waitasec, and thank you for your thoughtful response to my question. I appreciate it.

You may not have seen my post directly above yours - I have the feeling we were typing at the same time. If not, please read it - you may find it interesting and I'd like your feedback, since you are a US citizen married to a Swede.

I've heard several people on this thread say that they think Americans all believe they will be rich before they die. Wow - I can't relate to this, as it hasn't at all been my experience. Yes - the OPPORTUNITY is there, and that's appealing to people who hope to be "rich" some day, and I believe, based strictly on my personal experience and the experiences of my friends and family (in other words, not a study) it IS more possible, for those people, to reach that goal in the US.

But most people I know don't aim to be "rich." They aim to be comfortable - to provide well for their families, to enjoy a nice house, a big TV, a dependable car that's not an eyesore, and not worry about where their next meal is coming from. Most people I know realize that "rich" doesn't equal "joy."

But - what most Americans consider "comfortable" would seem like the lap of luxury for most of the rest of the world.

For instance, I live in a 2500 square foot home, on an acre lot, new construction, with lots of nice features like beautiful trim, fixtures, granite countertops, jacuzzi tub, etc. Without telling all my personal business, let me just put it this way - this house would be absolutely unaffordable to us -simply UNAVAILABLE - in most parts of the EU. Our European friends, some of whom visit about once a year, are simply amazed at the affordability and availability of quality real estate in the US in general, and our area in particular. By their standards, we are "rich." When in reality, they are more "upper class" in Europe than we would be if we lived there.

Though they are wealthy by EU standards, they are absolutely awestruck by our "wealth" and creature comforts - and cost of living.

So in this sense, yes -we want to be "rich" and we ARE "rich." But that term is very subjective.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Thanks for your input Kathryn and others.

I appreciate the fact that many things are different both with regards to population (size and diversity) and other sociological factors and I assure you I never intended this tread to be about "hating America". I was merely puzzled about the attitude I had encountered with, I think it is safe to say 'some', Americans that their country is #1 and unquestionably the best in the world when a multitude of facts and statistics show that this is clearly not the case.
I have gotten a lot of feedback on that and thankfully it appears that many Americans are much more reflected and nuanced about the subject at hand.

I hope this is the norm and not the exception.

Speaking as a teacher both working at a multicultural school and currently studying Multiculturalism I think there are several factors that influence immigration to the Scandinavian countries. First off they tend to have rather strict immigration laws, something that we are seeing being implemented in several European countries, and considering the geography of these countries, enforcing said immigration laws is probably easier than it might be in for instance the US. Immigrants currently make up 11,4% of the Norwegian population, which is manageable and since we have few private schools this means that the vast majority of their children will go to school together with Norwegian children thus easing integration. Unlike many other places in the world some 70% of the people in Norway are atheist or non-religious which means that there is little chance of religion influencing public policy and that in turn acts as a deterrent against religious groups working to gain power. Norway is and will remain a secular country for a very long time, perhaps (hopefully) indefinitely. In addition we have several institutions and mechanisms in place to help immigrants adapt to Norwegian society, including education (Learning Norwegian, learning how to deal with the Norwegian legal system, and so on.), economic aid (Immigrants and refugees are granted economic aid to help them settle. This is in addition to the social benefits granted to all Norwegians.) and so on. All of this adds up to us having few problems with immigration in comparison to many other countries around the globe.

I'm not saying that it is perfect or that conflicts never emerge, but so far it seems to be working within specs.

That being said it is, as someone pointed out earlier in the tread, difficult, and in some cases perhaps impossible to make direct comparisons between countries, but one must always be open to the fact that someone, somewhere might have figured out a better way to do things. One must be watchful, both as a person and as a nation, against blind patriotism and claiming that one is the best in the world on any level. In this, as in most situations, a certain amount of humility is a good thing.

 

[Kathryn]

LOL I couldn't agree more - and I just hope Scandinavians don't fall prey to "blind patriotism" or the belief that their countries are "#1" either!

It's an impossible designation, though of course individual countries can claim to be "#1" statistically on any number of issues. But cumulatively? Way too subjective a topic to be assessed objectively. It literally boils down to each individual's perspective.