USA Supporting Israel's Terrorism "Lite"

[Revoltingest]

They're at it again, ie, Israel's government committing a kind
of sanitized terrorism by demolishing homes of families of
non-Jewish terrorists. Israelis are also calling for deporting
entire families...people whose crime is being related.

I find it heinous that my government supports this.
What do we stand for? Supporting a terrorist state
that oppresses a large segment of its population?

 

[Debater Slayer]

They're at it again, ie, Israel's government committing a kind
of sanitized terrorism by demolishing homes of families of
non-Jewish terrorists. Israelis are also calling for deporting
entire families...people whose crime is being related.

I find it heinous that my government supports this.
What do we stand for? Supporting a terrorist state
that oppresses a large segment of its population?

A link about this news:

Israel prepares to demolish home of Palestinian gunman who killed 7 in East Jerusalem

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I used to be on the fence between the Israeli-Palestine issue. Then Israel blew up the fence. And the school next to the fence.

 

[Harel13]

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that someone in the world considers all of the Arabs in the territory of "smaller" Land of Israel (as opposed to "greater" Land of Israel) to be part of the population of the State of Israel, when most of the world does not think so, including Israel itself.
If I understand you correctly, the PA is a subdivision of the Israeli government and Hamas is an Israeli terrorist cell, correct?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I used to be on the fence between the Israeli-Palestine issue. Then Israel blew up the fence. And the school next to the fence.

Since most younger voters in the US lean left, I'm hoping that American public sentiment will increasingly turn against Israeli policies and eventually lead to strong political pressure or at least much less support for Israel. AOC and Ilhan Omar, for example, are already quite clear about their condemnation of Israel's crimes, and they have many more years ahead in their careers.

Hopefully things will change for the better, especially since the evangelical Christian extremism that underlies a lot of the religious support for Israel is declining in popularity.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Since most younger voters in the US lean left, I'm hoping that American public sentiment will increasingly turn against Israeli policies and eventually lead to strong political pressure or at least much less support for Israel. AOC and Ilhan Omar, for example, are already quite clear about their condemnation of Israel's crimes, and they have many more years ahead in their careers. Hopefully things will change for the better.

I hope so, but it's going to take massive shifts in many views. With that issue especially, but also with others that I've experienced, there is no discussion or debate (and certainly no condemnation) without scathing accusations of antisemitism being leveled and quite literally ruining lives over nothing.

And to be clear (for posterity) by nothing I mean simple disagreements over non-related terminology like "spicy German" in lieu of "nazi" to avoid an audio censor. In a lot of Leftist spaces a conversation can quite literally get shut down by a Jewish person (either actual or claimed) speaking their mind and then everyone else being paralyzed with social fear of speaking over them, even if the issue has nothing to do with Judaism or the Hebrew people. But for this issue? Holy Hel it would be ten times worse.

And I want to also be very clear (again, for posterity) that antisemitism is a very big issue still, especially in America. I do not wish to downplay it's harms, and I do actively fight against it. But calling someone an antisemite and tearing down their life just because they disagreed with you isn't it, and that does harm to awareness of actual instances of antisemitism by trivializing the word.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I hope so, but it's going to take massive shifts in many views. With that issue especially, but also with others that I've experienced, there is no discussion or debate (and certainly no condemnation) without scathing accusations of antisemitism being leveled and quite literally ruining lives over nothing.

And to be clear (for posterity) by nothing I mean simple disagreements over non-related terminology like "spicy German" in lieu of "nazi" to avoid an audio censor. In a lot of Leftist spaces a conversation can quite literally get shut down by a Jewish person (either actual or claimed) speaking their mind and then everyone else being paralyzed with social fear of speaking over them, even if the issue has nothing to do with Judaism or the Hebrew people. But for this issue? Holy Hel it would be ten times worse.

And I want to also be very clear (again, for posterity) that antisemitism is a very big issue still, especially in America. I do not wish to downplay it's harms, and I do actively fight against it. But calling someone an antisemite and tearing down their life just because they disagreed with you isn't it, and that does harm to awareness of actual instances of antisemitism by trivializing the word.

I'm reminded of the accusations of "Islamophobia" against people who speak out against Islamism and theocratically minded thinking. It seems that some on the left vacillate between a desire not to disagree with a member of a minority, no matter the circumstances, and the reality of sometimes having to do so in order to uphold core liberal values and human rights.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Hopefully things will change for the better, especially since the evangelical Christian extremism that underlies a lot of the religious support for Israel is declining in popularity.

Israel can appeal again to the leftists, perhaps. In america in the middle of the last century, didn't the creation of the state appeal to the leftists more than the rightists?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Israel can appeal again to the leftists, perhaps. In america in the middle of the last century, didn't the creation of the state appeal to the leftists more than the rightists?

I'm not familiar with the finer details of American politics from that period, so I don't know which side supported Israel more back then.

 

[Heyo]

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that someone in the world considers all of the Arabs in the territory of "smaller" Land of Israel (as opposed to "greater" Land of Israel) to be part of the population of the State of Israel, when most of the world does not think so, including Israel itself.
If I understand you correctly, the PA is a subdivision of the Israeli government and Hamas is an Israeli terrorist cell, correct?

Would it make it better if Israel blew up houses in a foreign country?

 

[amorphous_constellation]

What do we stand for?

There is the issue of the western block, america et. al, and the competition with the post-soviet block. A country like Israel might seem to stand on the border of that whole issue. As long as america is influential there, in israel, we seem to have an ally to stand against iran and russia, in that region.

 

[Stevicus]

I find it heinous that my government supports this.
What do we stand for? Supporting a terrorist state
that oppresses a large segment of its population?

"We" (as in the US government) have done things like this before. It's not exactly unprecedented, but I agree that it's heinous.

There have been times when our government has tried to mediate this dispute, although that's a difficult position to be in, if they're not truly neutral and objective. If they're taking sides or playing favorites, then they would be poor mediators.

 

[Revoltingest]

There is the issue of the western block, america et. al, and the competition with the post-soviet block. A country like Israel might seem to stand on the border of that whole issue. As long as america is influential there, in israel, we seem to have an ally to stand against iran and russia, in that region.

Iran appears to be the enemy because of US
& Israeli hostility. We don't need an ally who
helps us create & maintain enmity.
Both countries pose such an existential threat to
Iran that they feel the need for nuclear deterrents.
And then we decry their wanting the same kinds
of weapons we'd aim against them. Hypocrisy.
Very dangerous, deadly, expensive hypocrisy.

 

[Harel13]

Would it make it better if Israel blew up houses in a foreign country?

I don't know that I'd define it as a foreign country (I am a believer in "greater" Israel, after all) but the people whose houses are being blown up are foreigners in political terms (and some might argue also in geopolitical terms). However, whenever @Revoltingest has made threads criticizing Israel, he has consistently referred to these same people as citizens of the State of Israel, which I have always found to be perplexing. My post was about his position not making any sense. It's not about what would make the situation better. His phrasing simply makes his position detached from reality, and this has been the case at least for as long as I have been a member of the site.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Iran appears to be the enemy because of US
& Israeli hostility. We don't need an ally who
helps us create & maintain enmity.
Both countries pose such an existential threat to
Iran that they feel the need for nuclear deterrents.
And then we decry their wanting the same kinds
of weapons we'd aim against them. Hypocrisy.
Very dangerous, deadly, expensive hypocrisy.

Iran is an important russian ally right? You've read the headlines about possible iranian drones in ukraine etc. Would they still do that if we weren't allied with israel? Geopolitics is complicated you know

 

[Revoltingest]

"We" (as in the US government) have done things like this before. It's not exactly unprecedented, but I agree that it's heinous.

We've staged a coup (1953) in Iran, we've killed
hundreds of thousands of Iranians in a proxy
war (using & supporting Iraq), we support Israel's
repeated attacks & assassinations of Iranians.
And we fail to realize why Iran acts as it does.

There have been times when our government has tried to mediate this dispute, although that's a difficult position to be in, if they're not truly neutral and objective. If they're taking sides or playing favorites, then they would be poor mediators.

USA is a poor mediator. First, we let Israel drive
our policy, & then we change leadership mid-stream.
Iran correctly views USA as entirely untrustworthy.
So now we've aided Putin by driving Iran to him.
Too much religion & stupidity on steroids going on here.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't know that I'd define it as a foreign country (I am a believer in "greater" Israel, after all) but the people whose houses are being blown up are foreigners in political terms (and some might argue also in geopolitical terms). However, whenever @Revoltingest has made threads criticizing Israel, he has consistently referred to these same people as citizens of the State of Israel, which I have always found to be perplexing. My post was about his position not making any sense. It's not about what would make the situation better. His phrasing simply makes his position detached from reality, and this has been the case at least for as long as I have been a member of the site.

I'm not clear on this.
I know there are territories Israel has taken & occupied,
& those residents are just subjects, not citizens.
But Israel does have non-Jewish citizens....right?

The issue here is Israel committing state terrorism by
group punishment, torture, & religious discrimination.
They're a major reason we have so much trouble in
the middle east. Without them as an ally, we wouldn't
need them as an ally to protect them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Iran is an important russian ally right?

I don't know how "important" they are.
But they've allied lately.

You've read the headlines about possible iranian drones in ukraine etc. Would they still do that if we weren't allied with israel? Geopolitics is complicated you know

We're waging economic & covert military war on Iran.
We've thus driven them to seek an enemy of their
enemy, ie, Russia. And of course, with our economic
sanctions on Russia, they need Iran & China more
than ever.

 

[Stevicus]

We've staged a coup (1953) in Iran, we've killed
hundreds of thousands of Iranians in a proxy
war (using & supporting Iraq), we support Israel's
repeated attacks & assassinations of Iranians.
And we fail to realize why Iran acts as it does.

The US government has been doing that kind of thing all over the world, on every continent except Antarctica. Officially, they claim to be "making the world safe for democracy," and no one can understand why the world does not appreciate our government's noble, honorable, and selfless efforts to make the world a better place.

USA is a poor mediator. First, we let Israel drive
our policy, & then we change leadership mid-stream.
Iran correctly views USA as entirely untrustworthy.
So now we've aided Putin by driving Iran to him.
Too much religion & stupidity on steroids going on here.

I think the world and the US would both be better off if the US took more of a backseat to international affairs. I'm not advocating isolationism or that we change any of our current alliances. But we could tone it down a bit and not be so recklessly haughty and arrogant in how we go about things.

 

[Revoltingest]

The US government has been doing that kind of thing all over the world, on every continent except Antarctica.

Geeze Louise....rather hyperbolic there, fella.

I think the world and the US would both be better off if the US took more of a backseat to international affairs. I'm not advocating isolationism or that we change any of our current alliances. But we could tone it down a bit and not be so recklessly haughty and arrogant in how we go about things.

I have high hopes, & low expectations.
2024 looks risky, portending that it could become
even worse than a miserable status quo.
But at least the Afghan & Iraq wars are over.
I credit Biden for ripping off the Band-Aid.