USA Supporting Israel's Terrorism "Lite"

[Stevicus]

Geeze Louise....rather hyperbolic there, fella.

It's true, isn't it? In order to tackle and address a problem, one has to tell it like it is in no uncertain terms.

I have high hopes, & low expectations.
2024 looks risky, portending that it could become
even worse than a miserable status quo.
But at least the Afghan & Iraq wars are over.
I credit Biden for ripping off the Band-Aid.

I think we need to rethink a lot of things about how we conduct foreign policy. Even if we wanted to maintain a miserable status quo, it's not really possible. The world has changed from what it looked like at the end of WW2, yet a lot of people can't seem to understand that.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's true, isn't it?

No, not the full hyperbole.

I think we need to rethink a lot of things about how we conduct foreign policy. Even if we wanted to maintain a miserable status quo, it's not really possible. The world has changed from what it looked like at the end of WW2, yet a lot of people can't seem to understand that.

It's possible to change our policies for the better.
But it seems most unlikely.

 

[Stevicus]

No, not the full hyperbole.

My statement was factually correct. You may not like the way I expressed it, but that does not change the truth of it.

It's possible to change our policies for the better.
But it seems most unlikely.

Too many people seem to have some sort of stake in US global interventionism.

 

[pearl]

It would seem that any equitable two state solution is as far apart as ever, maybe even more so now.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They're at it again, ie, Israel's government committing a kind
of sanitized terrorism by demolishing homes of families of
non-Jewish terrorists. Israelis are also calling for deporting
entire families...people whose crime is being related.

I find it heinous that my government supports this.
What do we stand for? Supporting a terrorist state
that oppresses a large segment of its population?

Another reason to leave the Bible behind.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

AOC and Ilhan Omar, for example, are already quite clear about their condemnation of Israel's crimes, and they have many more years ahead in their careers.

Except Ohmar brings the devil and another religion into it.
We need secular thought and solutions as those varieties who worship Abraham's God have been failing to find peace amongst themselves for over 1000 years now. If it takes that long they not be able to at all.

 

[sun rise]

I don't know that I'd define it as a foreign country (I am a believer in "greater" Israel, after all) but the people whose houses are being blown up are foreigners in political terms (and some might argue also in geopolitical terms). However, whenever @Revoltingest has made threads criticizing Israel, he has consistently referred to these same people as citizens of the State of Israel, which I have always found to be perplexing. My post was about his position not making any sense. It's not about what would make the situation better. His phrasing simply makes his position detached from reality, and this has been the case at least for as long as I have been a member of the site.

I consider Israel's actions, punishing a family for the acts of one person, to be a form of collective punishment which is a war crime. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/es/customary-ihl/v2/rule103

 

[Harel13]

I consider Israel's actions, punishing a family for the acts of one person, to be a form of collective punishment which is a war crime. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/es/customary-ihl/v2/rule103

What does this have to do with my post?

 

[Curious George]

I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that someone in the world considers all of the Arabs in the territory of "smaller" Land of Israel (as opposed to "greater" Land of Israel) to be part of the population of the State of Israel, when most of the world does not think so, including Israel itself.
If I understand you correctly, the PA is a subdivision of the Israeli government and Hamas is an Israeli terrorist cell, correct?

I think there are two factual errors here:

1) a person need not be considered a citizen to make up part of the population; residency will suffice.

2) I don’t think the claim was made by @Revoltingest that “all of the Arabs” were citizens.

And a third related point:

3) The article that @Debater Slayer linked indicated that one of the potential consequences that the Israeli government was considering was “stripping citizenship rights”. I am not sure whether this means the right to become a citizen or the rights they currently hold as a citizen, but it lends itself to the assumption that at least some of the family members may, (not must) have citizenship.

So, I am confused about your objection.

 

[Harel13]

I'm not clear on this.

I am happy to try to explain things again.

I know there are territories Israel has taken & occupied,
& those residents are just subjects, not citizens.
But Israel does have non-Jewish citizens....right?

Okay, let's break down this statement:

Israel conquered during the 1967 Six Day War a lot of territory from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Many of the people who lived in the areas controlled by the Jordanians (commonly referred to as "the West Bank") fled during the war and were invited to return to their homes after the war by the Israeli government. The government was under no legal obligation to do so, but hoped that doing so would serve to further the drawn-out peace process in the region.

Who were these people? They were Arabs who had been living under Jordanian rule for 19 years, ever since the 1949 ceasefire agreement was drawn up. Previously they had lived under British rule. In 1947 they, along with the rest of the Arab population of British Mandate Palestine, were given the option of setting up an Arab state parallel to the Jewish one, but declined to do so, and instead turned to other Arab countries to assist in annihilating the Jewish state. As we know, they failed.

After the 1967 war, conquered Jordanian regions were divided into three types: Area A, Area B and Area C. I won't go into the full history of the region in the following decades, but suffice it to say that though the Israeli government invited these people back into their homes, and allowed those that did not flee to simply stay where they were, one important thing did not occur:

These people did not receive any kind of legal status within the population of the State of Israel. In other words, they are not citizens or residents or even guests.
Yes, they live in land that was conquered by Israel from a third party - Jordan. But they do not hold any kind of residential status with regards to Israel. They are not subjects of the State of Israel.

Who are they subjects of? Mostly they defer to the Palestinian Authority, a government of sorts created a number of decades ago.

In other words, they are foreigners to Israel. Israel was under no legal obligation to allow these people to return to their homes, after they had time and again sided with Israel's enemies. But for various reasons did so any way. However, they are not citizens or even residents or "subjects" of Israel. At best, they are subjects of the PA, and are treated as such by the Israeli government.

Now, during the 1948 war, some Arabs decided to side with the new Jewish state. They were granted full citizenship and equal rights and they and their descendants hold these rights to this very day. They have integrated with Israeli society in many respects. They hold jobs in practically every field (medicine, software development, archeology, education, military, government and more) and sometimes even enjoy more rights than Jewish Israelis.

For this reason, there are some Arabs in this land that enjoy full Israeli rights and other Arabs that do not enjoy any Israeli rights, but do enjoy whatever rights the PA gives them.

In short, it would be disingenuous to suggest again and again that whatever actions Israel takes against PA Arabs is typical of an apartheid state, given the fact that these people are not even subjects of Israel. They are foreigners, and very often - unfortunately - enemies.

You may argue "war crimes" all you want. You can argue that the USA should not support Israel But suggesting it's apartheid is simply detached from reality. Suggesting that Israel is acting against its own population is simply untrue.

 

[Harel13]

1) a person need not be considered a citizen to make up part of the population; residency will suffice.

Ah, but that's the exact issue! They do not have residency status. See this post I just made on this thread for more details.

2) I don’t think the claim was made by @Revoltingest that “all of the Arabs” were citizens.

Nor did I state that. I simply said, like you did, that one may understand from @Revoltingest's post, that they are "part of the population", i.e., residents.

And a third related point:

3) The article that @Debater Slayer linked indicated that one of the potential consequences that the Israeli government was considering was “stripping citizenship rights”. I am not sure whether this means the right to become a citizen or the rights they currently hold as a citizen, but it lends itself to the assumption that at least some of the family members may, (not must) have citizenship.

I don't have time to read the article at the moment, but I am assuming it is referring to recent events. The issue at hand at the moment is that - from what I remember - one of the recent terrorists, who was killed, was from a family with Israeli citizenship but lived in East Jerusalem, which is controlled by the PA, meaning that they are also PA subjects. Again, see the post I linked. One of their sons chose to side with non-Israeli Arab terrorism. He is now dead. The question is whether his family's Israeli citizenship rights should be stripped away as punishment, and as a warning towards other such dual-citizenship families strongly associated with the PA or other terror organizations such as Hamas (being that his Israeli ID card made it easy for him to carry out his murderous plot). They would still remain PA subjects.

 

[Revoltingest]

Another reason to leave the Bible behind.

Bible, Torah, Koran...those things cause some trouble.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am happy to try to explain things again.

Okay, let's break down this statement:

Israel conquered during the 1967 Six Day War a lot of territory from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Many of the people who lived in the areas controlled by the Jordanians (commonly referred to as "the West Bank") fled during the war and were invited to return to their homes after the war by the Israeli government. The government was under no legal obligation to do so, but hoped that doing so would serve to further the drawn-out peace process in the region.

Who were these people? They were Arabs who had been living under Jordanian rule for 19 years, ever since the 1949 ceasefire agreement was drawn up. Previously they had lived under British rule. In 1947 they, along with the rest of the Arab population of British Mandate Palestine, were given the option of setting up an Arab state parallel to the Jewish one, but declined to do so, and instead turned to other Arab countries to assist in annihilating the Jewish state. As we know, they failed.

After the 1967 war, conquered Jordanian regions were divided into three types: Area A, Area B and Area C. I won't go into the full history of the region in the following decades, but suffice it to say that though the Israeli government invited these people back into their homes, and allowed those that did not flee to simply stay where they were, one important thing did not occur:

These people did not receive any kind of legal status within the population of the State of Israel. In other words, they are not citizens or residents or even guests.
Yes, they live in land that was conquered by Israel from a third party - Jordan. But they do not hold any kind of residential status with regards to Israel. They are not subjects of the State of Israel.

Who are they subjects of? Mostly they defer to the Palestinian Authority, a government of sorts created a number of decades ago.

In other words, they are foreigners to Israel. Israel was under no legal obligation to allow these people to return to their homes, after they had time and again sided with Israel's enemies. But for various reasons did so any way. However, they are not citizens or even residents or "subjects" of Israel. At best, they are subjects of the PA, and are treated as such by the Israeli government.

Now, during the 1948 war, some Arabs decided to side with the new Jewish state. They were granted full citizenship and equal rights and they and their descendants hold these rights to this very day. They have integrated with Israeli society in many respects. They hold jobs in practically every field (medicine, software development, archeology, education, military, government and more) and sometimes even enjoy more rights than Jewish Israelis.

For this reason, there are some Arabs in this land that enjoy full Israeli rights and other Arabs that do not enjoy any Israeli rights, but do enjoy whatever rights the PA gives them.

In short, it would be disingenuous to suggest again and again that whatever actions Israel takes against PA Arabs is typical of an apartheid state, given the fact that these people are not even subjects of Israel. They are foreigners, and very often - unfortunately - enemies.

You may argue "war crimes" all you want. You can argue that the USA should not support Israel But suggesting it's apartheid is simply detached from reality. Suggesting that Israel is acting against its own population is simply untrue.

That's a lot to read, & it looks like deviation from
the problem of our supporting a terrorist state.
I object to that. We should re-consider their
being our ally, & giving them massive aid.

 

[Harel13]

That's a lot to read

But will you read it?

Perhaps @rosends can explain it in a more concise manner (tl;dr why some Arabs are citizens of Israel and others are not).

& it looks like deviation from
the problem of our supporting a terrorist state.
I object to that. We should re-consider their
being our ally, & giving them massive aid.

I sincerely hope this is not an excuse to stick to your ignorant position regarding the legal status of Arabs in the region. As I wrote, you are free to argue that the USA should not support Israel. But it is simply disingenuous to say, as you did in your OP and in the past as well, that Israel is acting against its own population or that Israel is an apartheid state. For reasons why, simply read my post. Or hold out for a summary from @rosends or another poster.

 

[rosends]

But will you read it?

Perhaps @rosends can explain it in a more concise manner (tl;dr why some Arabs are citizens of Israel and others are not).

I sincerely hope this is not an excuse to stick to your ignorant position regarding the legal status of Arabs in the region. As I wrote, you are free to argue that the USA should not support Israel. But it is simply disingenuous to say, as you did in your OP and in the past as well, that Israel is acting against its own population or that Israel is an apartheid state. For reasons why, simply read my post. Or hold out for a summary from @rosends or another poster.

Can't we just get Yosef Haddad in here to explain it?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Bible, Torah, Koran...those things cause some trouble.

That's why Omar needs to butt out. Many centuries, more than a millennium, and Jews, Christians and Muslims still can't get along. Bringing the Devil into it? Yeah, that will go swell and help bring peace to a perpetually wartorn region.

 

[Harel13]

Can't we just get Yosef Haddad in here to explain it?

Oh, if only. But if he was a member here, I'd have to focus on my real responsibilities instead of hanging around Israel threads all day...

 

[Revoltingest]

But will you read it?

Not in the near future.
Devoting time to something that distracts
from the issue of our supporting a terrorist
country with massive money & more is
the issue.
Justification for terrorism is off the table.

I sincerely hope this is not an excuse to stick to your ignorant position...

I sincerely hope you're not trying to defend & encourage terrorism.

 

[Sand Dancer]

That's why Omar needs to butt out. Many centuries, more than a millennium, and Jews, Christians and Muslims still can't get along. Bringing the Devil into it? Yeah, that will go swell and help bring peace to a perpetually wartorn region.

What's the devil part?

 

[Harel13]

Not in the near future.
Devoting time to something that distracts
from the issue of our supporting a terrorist
country with massive money & more is
the issue.
Justification for terrorism is off the table.

Then your position remains disingenuous and utterly detached from reality. This is not about whether Israel is a terrorist country. It's about whether apartheid is committed in Israel. It is not. Unfortunately, I am forced to assume that your position is that the PA is a subdivision of the Israeli government and Hamas is an Israeli terror group, and that Israel-Gaza wars were civil wars. Is that right?