USA Supporting Israel's Terrorism "Lite"

[Revoltingest]

Then your position remains disingenuous...

That's an ironic barb to toss.
It's a tough issue with fanatics involved on
both sides, all ready to kill those of lesser
faiths for God & country.

 

[Harel13]

That's an ironic barb to toss.
It's a tough issue with fanatics involved on
both sides, all ready to kill those of lesser
faiths for God & country.

You are deflecting. Is it or is it not your position that the PA is a subdivision of the Israeli government and Hamas is an Israeli terrorist group attacking fellow Israeli citizens, and all Israel-Gaza wars were actually civil wars?

 

[Revoltingest]

You are deflecting.

Actually, I'm avoiding your deflection from the issue of the OP.
You'll find me stubborn on this.

 

[Curious George]

Ah, but that's the exact issue! They do not have residency status. See this post I just made on this thread for more details.

Nor did I state that. I simply said, like you did, that one may understand from @Revoltingest's post, that they are "part of the population", i.e., residents.

I don't have time to read the article at the moment, but I am assuming it is referring to recent events. The issue at hand at the moment is that - from what I remember - one of the recent terrorists, who was killed, was from a family with Israeli citizenship but lived in East Jerusalem, which is controlled by the PA, meaning that they are also PA subjects. Again, see the post I linked. One of their sons chose to side with non-Israeli Arab terrorism. He is now dead. The question is whether his family's Israeli citizenship rights should be stripped away as punishment, and as a warning towards other such dual-citizenship families strongly associated with the PA or other terror organizations such as Hamas (being that his Israeli ID card made it easy for him to carry out his murderous plot). They would still remain PA subjects.

after a review, albeit a quick review, I am not so sure that your post adequately addresses my point.

Firstly I am not sure where the family or their homes were located. Was this in the West Bank? If so, I see your point that they are not residents of Israel as the West Bank is a territory that is not a part of Israel despite the territory being located within Israel.

but if this is the case, then we can still assume they are residents of the West Bank.
If Israel has jurisdiction to dictate who is on the registry of residents, then we can say Israel has jurisdiction over that population and regardless of legal status (residency or citizenship), this group of people are part of Israel’s population.

If Israel does not have jurisdiction, then how is Israel stripping citizenship rights or doing anything to anyone’s home?

as far as whether this ought to happen, I don’t know. Any response by me is likely going to be biased by favoring a “right of association” as is understood in the U.S. Legal status is very much within the purview of the nation which is either granting or denying it. I am unfamiliar with the laws there and imagine that stripping rights of citizenship based on association, or affecting real/personal property associated with an individual is done through legal mechanisms and could not be care out but for those legal mechanisms.

I expect some will support those institutions and some will oppose them. I think the point of the OP was to oppose them regardless of the legal status of those impacted.

 

[Harel13]

Actually, I'm avoiding your deflection from the issue of the OP.
You'll find me stubborn on this.

Bearing in mind that you will likely not read my post because it is "too long" or some other excuse,

I have stated in the past several times that I'm in favor of the US pulling out of this particular regional conflict. So we are not in disagreement on that. Having already stated that several times here on RF, I saw no reason to state it once again. However, the way you phrased your OP shows that you have absolutely no idea what's going on here. Frankly, I find that a bit sad, considering that this is not the first time you have created a thread on this topic.

I am reminded of a book I read recently, The Always War by Margaret Peterson Haddix, where two countries that shared a continent had been engaged in cybernetic warfare for over 80 years. As it turned out (spoilers), no actual fighting had occurred. RC fighter jet strikes were all faked by these countries' master computers. The computers duped these people for nearly a century by faking warfare footage. Sad, really (though the computers had a good reason for that).

In case you missed the metaphor, I am not suggesting that no fighting is taking place in Israel. I am stating that you have no idea what's going on or how things work. This, in my opinion, makes these threads of yours pointless, because they are ever unchanging in disingenuousness. They are based on a fiction, a parallel-earth version of the Israel-Arab conflict that you have made up.

And with that I will back out of this debate with you.
But I'm still open to answering questions from other members, to the best of my ability.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's the devil part?

Things like equating the US amd Israel to the Taliban and Hamas, said "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel," she reneged on promises she made to Jews, and has an established history of denouncing all criticism of her--even from fellow Dems--as Islamaphobic from the far right.
Admittedly, I keep forgetting she didn't actually invoke the Devil, rather said that Israel is evil and the Muslim god needs to make us see the truth, but that's close enough.

 

[sun rise]

What does this have to do with my post?

But the people whose houses are being blown up are foreigners in political terms

That was the motivation - it does not matter if they are foreigners or not.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Things like equating the US amd Israel to the Taliban and Hamas, said "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel," she reneged on promises she made to Jews, and has an established history of denouncing all criticism of her--even from fellow Dems--as Islamaphobic from the far right.
Admittedly, I keep forgetting she didn't actually invoke the Devil, rather said that Israel is evil and the Muslim god needs to make us see the truth, but that's close enough.

Oh dear...

 

[Revoltingest]

Bearing in mind that you will likely not read my post because it is "too long" or some other excuse...

Posts that begin thus don't get read anyway.
Same as whataboutism.
I have reasons, not excuses.

 

[Harel13]

That was the motivation - it does not matter if they are foreigners or not.

Now you're quoting one post of mine, having added a sentence from a different post of mine - that's dishonest.

As for your actual claim, it most certainly does matter, and your belittling of the issue shows how much. For years now people around the world have claimed that Israel is an apartheid state. They claim that this justifies taking actions against it. But this does two things:

1. It diminishes the suffering of people who actually suffered apartheid (in Africa).
2. Causes people to think Israelis are racist, undemocratic loons.

Is it apartheid or is it actions a sovereign state takes against foreigners who have long presented themselves as enemies of this country?

The latter legitimatizes, the former delegitimizes.
To refer to the OP's question: Is the US backing an apartheid state or is the US backing a country defending its populace and its freedom?

These are not mere semantics. Words have power and we can see that the more BDS and other such groups scream "apartheid", the more people are convinced. This spells doom for Israel.
Now, perhaps that is something some members here on RF would like.
But I have yet to see actual proof of apartheidness in Israel from members here. Some people here seem unable to see a difference between different groups of Arabs. Are all Arabs the same? Perhaps that's racism. Who knows.

 

[Harel13]

Posts that begin thus don't get read anyway.
Same as whataboutism.
I have reasons, not excuses.

It's an excuse not to hear another side. So you're not debating, you're just standing on your little soapbox. Enjoy yourself, or don't.

 

[metis]

That's why Omar needs to butt out.

Just for the record, she did apologize for her anti-Semitic rant. Now, whether that's enough is another question.

 

[rosends]

Just for the record, she did apologize for her anti-Semitic rant. Now, whether that's enough is another question.

Her claim, that she had no idea that there was any connection between Jews and money as an anti-Semitic trope is either a ploy or a symbol of absolute ignorance.

 

[metis]

Her claim, that she had no idea that there was any connection between Jews and money as an anti-Semitic trope is either a ploy or a symbol of absolute ignorance.

Yep, it obviously shouldn't have been said, thus I take her apology with a very large grain of salt.

However, you obviously well know that there are some Jews who do much the same, including some here at RF, and that should be sounded out as well. Each side needs to very much lower the temp, imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's an excuse...

You want to continue with this line of snark?
Let's consider...
Definition of excuse | Dictionary.com
This is a word so often mis-used by peeved people
when given a reason for something. "Excuse" has
connotations of inadequate justification. It's used
to express disdain.
It falls in the same category of chicanery as saying
"whine" instead of "criticize" or "complain".
Such mischief earns only my jaundiced eye.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just for the record, she did apologize for her anti-Semitic rant. Now, whether that's enough is another question.

It shouldn't have happened and if she's going to so casually call people evil and invoke the name of her god so the world can see the evil, and shamelessly air centuries of traditional hatred and bigotry then she should go. We have a problem with Christian whackos without adding another religious nutter causing division strife all because god said so.

 

[sun rise]

1. It diminishes the suffering of people who actually suffered apartheid (in Africa).

I know many Israelis and their supporters don't like the comparison but I find it apt as does Amnesty International and other respected organizations.

2. Causes people to think Israelis are racist, undemocratic loons.

It's of course not racism because there are not multiple races involved. And Israelis have voted for what is going on so that's hardly undemocratic. And it's too bad that you use the pejorative "loons" because that's not true for many who oppose Israel's policy as I started to do after the 1973 war when the West Bank settlements started.

Is it apartheid or is it actions a sovereign state takes against foreigners who have long presented themselves as enemies of this country?

But Israel crossed a line it should not have by trying to create an enlarged state solely for Jews which means treating a minority as the enemy, restricting their rights, pushing them off land they've owned (in the West Bank and to some extent in Israel proper and in general treating them as automatic enemies fits.

Israel has always had my support in its right to exist but Israel has moved from that to Israel has the right to do anything no matter what international laws. In my youth, there was a sincere attempt to start moving beyond the hatred but now we see suppression and the automatic hate and violence that is the result of suppression.

The turn toward darkness became apparent when a possible positive path forward was destroyed by the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Now, sooner or later, there will be a serious Iran-Israel war and heaven help us all what that starts.

 

[Wu Wei]

They're at it again, ie, Israel's government committing a kind
of sanitized terrorism by demolishing homes of families of
non-Jewish terrorists. Israelis are also calling for deporting
entire families...people whose crime is being related.

I find it heinous that my government supports this.
What do we stand for? Supporting a terrorist state
that oppresses a large segment of its population?

Why should this be any different since we even support them when they practice it on us..... see the USS Liberty incident

 

[metis]

We have a problem with Christian whackos without adding another religious nutter causing division strife all because god said so.

After reading her initial rant, I don't think it was as much religiously based but more likely nationality based [Palestinian v Jew]. However, I certainly don't excuse that either, also because the two [religion & nationality] do intertwine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

After reading her initial rant, I don't think it was as much religiously based but more likely nationality based [Palestinian v Jew]. However, I certainly don't excuse that either, also because the two [religion & nationality] do intertwine.

She repeated anti-semitic wordage and that her god has to reveal the problem, and apologized but somehow expects us to believe she wasn't aware of any of this, including the stereotypes regarding Jews and money, downplay and spin it, and say "I might have uses those words... I owned up to it."
I see in her centuries upon centuries of Islamic-fueled anti-Semitism.