USA - The Good Samaritan

[enchanted_one1975]

You did not answer my question. Could you please supply a response related to my question?

Once you are conquered you cannot "get an economy going". You either have assets or you do not. If you are conquered you are no longer in charge. Your new leader owns your gold, your land, your population, and you. All is lost.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Yes, let us imagine a currency backed by gold, say identical to our current fiat money but with gold backing for each bill.

So now, Tell me, how would a nation without a economy (say that a foreign nation has bombed them to bits and stolen all gold that happened to exist), get an economy going/running ?

To me argument that we should go back to a currency based on Gold
is about as relevant is saying that we should go back to the days of bartering. The use of the Gold standard 1920s prolonging the depression, because, the gold standard limited the Federal Reserve's control over monetary policy. Lets go back to the days before FDR. Thats going in the right direction.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Once you are conquered you cannot "get an economy going". You either have assets or you do not. If you are conquered you are no longer in charge. Your new leader owns your gold, your land, your population, and you. All is lost.

I did not give any scenario other then that their gold was taken.
So you are then saying that a nation without gold (a rare metal with very little true use) they can not have an economy, produce food and start industry....

..... Because no gold, a specific metal with limited uses and limited supply... That is indeed strange view you hold, I hope you others are reading this.. Am I the only one thinking this is a strange view? You can not have a state/society without gold. What then existed before gold was mined enchanted one? "All is lost"... You said.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

To me argument that we should go back to a currency based on Gold is about as relevant is saying that we should go back to the days of bartering. The use of the Gold standard 1920s prolonging the depression, because, the gold standard limited the Federal Reserve's control over monetary policy. Lets go back to the days before FDR. Thats going in the right direction.

Bartering is actually what helps poor folks survive in failing economies. It is beneficial to both parties because the government doesn't get to collect part of the transaction in taxes. You don't see much bartering in the city, but those of us out in the country see it all around, whether or not we participate. Think of it this way:

If I butcher a cattle and my neighbor sells eggs, which is better?

a) I take my beef to market and sell it. My neighbor takes his eggs to market and sells them. (Assume there is a buyer for both.) My neighbor and I both pay tax on the income received from the sale. I buy my neighbor's eggs at the market and he buys my beef at the market. Tax is collected again as we both pay sales tax. Somehow the government just consumed 40% (33% in income tax and 7% in sales tax on the repurchase) of our beef and eggs.

b) I take what beef I do not need to my neighbor and see if he would like some. He says he was hoping I would come by. He asks if I could use some eggs. Instead of swapping money and being taxed, we trade. We get to collectively keep 100% of our commodity. Being poor country folk, we are the ones that are supposedly at a disadvantage by doing this.

How is losing 40% of my commodity to the government better for me than getting to keep it all? I am not living a tax exempt life, but with an occasional barter I get a break.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I did not give any scenario other then that their gold was taken.
So you are then saying that a nation without gold (a rare metal with very little true use) they can not have an economy, produce food and start industry....

..... Because no gold, a specific metal with limited uses and limited supply... That is indeed strange view you hold, I hope you others are reading this.. Am I the only one thinking this is a strange view? You can not have a state/society without gold. What then existed before gold was mined enchanted one? "All is lost"... You said.

Gold has always been. It can be read about in every ancient religious script, including the Abrahamic Bible. If you are totally wiped out and you need to "create" an economy, your only hope is to create a commodity and trade it into another economy which has a gold backing. I guarantee though, if you are conquered financially you will be slaves to your conqueror and you will not have the chance to create any such economy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How is losing 40% of my commodity to the government better for me than getting to keep it all? I am not living a tax exempt life, but with an occasional barter I get a break.

Wait one minute: the difference in taxation isn't because of the nature of the transaction; it's just because you decided to pay your taxes in one scenario and evade them in the other.

There's nothing about barter that makes it especially better for tax evasion than paying cash.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Wait one minute: the difference in taxation isn't because of the nature of the transaction; it's just because you decided to pay your taxes in one scenario and evade them in the other.

There's nothing about barter that makes it especially better for tax evasion than paying cash.

The previous poster's implication of bartering was that it is somehow a step backward and bad for people. I have just demonstrated how it is good for people. Oh, and it is not tax evasion as we are not required to pay tax on a trade (yet).

 

[Gabethewiking]

Gold has always been. It can be read about in every ancient religious script, including the Abrahamic Bible. If you are totally wiped out and you need to "create" an economy, your only hope is to create a commodity and trade it into another economy which has a gold backing. I guarantee though, if you are conquered financially you will be slaves to your conqueror and you will not have the chance to create any such economy.

I will ask you again, say 15 000 years ago they did not ore gold, how did the various societies work?

Other questions also comes up such as if the population increases, say in the U.S, how would our society work if we have no more gold. how would we grow/expand? Everything is (according to you) then controlled by this finite amount of gold and the X amount of kilos we have, you are then preventing your society from growing as any funds/society can not grow. A Bottle neck, Please explain.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I will ask you again, say 15 000 years ago they did not ore gold, how did the various societies work?

Other questions also comes up such as if the population increases, say in the U.S, how would our society work if we have no more gold? Everything is (according to you) then controlled by this finite about of gold and the X amount of kilos we have, you are then preventing your society from growing as the funds can not grow. Please explain.

If you do not have a backing you cannot have a valid currency. You can barter. Eventually you find an item of value that can be bartered for, so that a person can barter smaller valued items in exchange for larger value items. Printing money with no backing is nothing more than an IOU.

 

[Gabethewiking]

If you do not have a backing you cannot have a valid currency. You can barter. Eventually you find an item of value that can be bartered for, so that a person can barter smaller valued items in exchange for larger value items. Printing money with no backing is nothing more than an IOU.

Okay, so now we are no longer talking about gold but about something that would work as a financial backing for your currency. Gold is then irrelevant, only one option, correct?

Now let us go back to this scenario, you claimed they could not start an economy because they had no gold, because gold was the backing, why not use something else? Perhaps a more useful metal to use as a currency/backing?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Okay, so now we are no longer talking about gold but about something that would work as a financial backing for your currency. Gold is then irrelevant, only one option, correct?

Now let us go back to this scenario, you claimed they could not start an economy because they had no gold, because gold was the backing, why not use something else? Perhaps a more useful metal to use as a currency/backing?

Do you think you can get your people to accept something else as backing? If so, will other countries accept it as backing when you try to take part in international trade? You can trade for anything, including a worthless slip of paper, if the person you are trading with is willing to accept it. All that sets value on anything is what it can be sold or traded for.

 

[Gabethewiking]

Do you think you can get your people to accept something else as backing? If so, will other countries accept it as backing when you try to take part in international trade? You can trade for anything, including a worthless slip of paper, if the person you are trading with is willing to accept it. All that sets value on anything is what it can be sold or traded for.

I do not think you understand. You use gold as the basis because you consider it valuable, I asked you what happens if a country is in chaos or have no gold, you stated that they could not have an economy.

I then pointed out that gold is used because it is considered a valuable metal, so why not use something else to back your currency, I askedyou about this but you did not seem to understand/want to answer.

You seem very hung up on gold, similar to a Thai hooker, gold is very important and the hookers in thailand buy gold to wear on their arms and neck, gold gold gold. Now tell me, as you seem you did not know, Gold is a METAL, you can not eat Gold (and survive), nor would it be suitable to drink it.

If you are in the desert and can choose between getting a lump of gold, or food and water, you seem to want to claim the gold and then die seemingly not understanding it is not important as you have no food. Gold is USED as a standard TODAY because WE, humans, have attached Value to it, in reality it has no more value then YOU decide. Do you understand?

A Society wanting to create an economy needs GOLD according to you, this makes no sense at all and is based in fairytale land, that is my point. We manage to start our societies without gold, We seem to be able to manage for a good old hundreds of thousands of years without gold and yet you claim it is impossible to have a economy (good economy) without Gold, a metal that we define as valuable....

Are you serious or just making fun of me here because I can not really believe you actually mean the things you say, you can not truly have that little understanding of huamn society, economics and function, can you?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I do not think you understand. You use gold as the basis because you consider it valuable, I asked you what happens if a country is in chaos or have no gold, you stated that they could not have an economy.

I then pointed out that gold is used because it is considered a valuable metal, so why not use something else to back your currency, I askedyou about this but you did not seem to understand/want to answer.

You seem very hung up on gold, similar to a Thai hooker, gold is very important and the hookers in thailand buy gold to wear on their arms and neck, gold gold gold. Now tell me, as you seem you did not know, Gold is a METAL, you can not eat Gold (and survive), nor would it be suitable to drink it.

If you are in the desert and can choose between getting a lump of gold, or food and water, you seem to want to claim the gold and then die seemingly not understanding it is not important as you have no food. Gold is USED as a standard TODAY because WE, humans, have attached Value to it, in reality it has no more value then YOU decide. Do you understand?

A Society wanting to create an economy needs GOLD according to you, this makes no sense at all and is based in fairytale land, that is my point. We manage to start our societies without gold, We seem to be able to manage for a good old hundreds of thousands of years without gold and yet you claim it is impossible to have a economy (good economy) without Gold, a metal that we define as valuable....

Are you serious or just making fun of me here because I can not really believe you actually mean the things you say, you can not truly have that little understanding of huamn society, economics and function, can you?

Hey I went ahead and started a new thread to discuss a backed monetary system vs fiat currency. I felt this thread was just getting way to derailed. BTW, congrats on your new avatar. It looks nice on you.

 

[Alceste]

I don't know what kind of hand out program you are on, but I pay a heck of a lot more than $4,000.00 per year in taxes. Couple that with the fact that I have been gainfully employed and paying taxes since I was 14. (That means I have been paying taxes for 20 years...since before most of those here that claim to know it all were even born.) How does that put me in the hole? I am very interested...maybe it's the new math I keep hearing about that puts me in the hole.

"In the hole" means owing. $4000 (roughly) is the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - which have been fought on borrowed money - divided by the population of the US. That's your share. Each of your children owes $4000 for those wars as well, and less than a buck for humanitarian aid.

The fact you are complaining about a metaphorical paper cut for brotherly love when your country is gushing blood from the jugular for warmongering is curious.

 

[Ba'al]

By Heather Scoffield, THE CANADIAN PRESS, cp.org, Updated: January 28, 2010 10:04 AM


DAVOS, Switzerland - Bill Clinton is singling out Canadians for their generosity to Haiti.
Clinton is U.S. President Barack Obama's top adviser on the post-earthquake aid effort, and he was at the Davos World Economic Forum urging the rich and powerful not to forget quake-stricken Haiti.
After meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper for about half an hour on Thursday, Clinton made a point of saying Canadians should be proud of their huge outpouring of support and money for victims of the Jan. 12 earthquake that flattened much of Haiti.
"It has been unbelievable. First, the Canadian people are so generous," said the former U.S. president. "I'll bet you on a per-capita basis, they're No. 1 in the world now in helping Haiti."
Canadians have donated more than $82.5 million to agencies involved in quake relief. Clinton credited the federal government's offer to match each private donation one-for-one.
"There is a big Haitian diaspora in Canada but this goes way beyond that. I'm very grateful," said Clinton, who is also the United Nations' special envoy for Haiti.
The Canadian government has committed more than $100 million to Haitian relief along with a 2,000-strong military contingent, and it promises to match dollar-for-dollar all individual donations made before Feb. 12, one month after the magnitude-7.0 quake.
Both Harper and Clinton said it's important world does not abandon Haiti after the initial panic of the earthquake subsides.
"We won't forget," Clinton said.
Indeed, Harper promised to increase Canada's support.
"It's day-to-day, week-to-week now," Harper told reporters. "But we're starting to look at the long-term and that's the focus we're going to have going forward.
"Haiti has been our No. 2 foreign-aid priority in the world, No. 1 in the Americas. And that's only going to get bigger in the future for us. I hope it's true for everyone else."
Clinton said he believes the Haitian tragedy has captured the attention of the world, and if the aid effort is carried out efficiently, support will remain.
"Those of us in the middle of this have to stand and deliver," he said. "We have to do this right and I think if we do it right and progress is made, then that commitment will stay there."
The Davos conference usually focuses on economics and banking, bringing together business executives, government leaders and thinkers in an annual meeting in the Swiss Alps.
But this year, organizer Klaus Schwab asked participants to pay special attention to Haiti as well.
Canada has led international efforts to set up a long-term plan for Haiti, inviting major players and the Haitian government to Montreal earlier this week to hash out a strategy.
In his speech on Thursday, Clinton pleaded for more aid for Haiti, starting first with cash that can go toward food, medicine and shelter.
"Right now, we have to worry about how to get through the week," he said.
He also asked specifically for pickup trucks that could be used to distribute aid. "I need 100, yesterday," he said.

 

[Alceste]

I gave my "points" (whatever those are) at the grocery store and two bucks at the liquor store. The media up here has made a huge deal out of it, so you can't spit without hitting at least three donation jars around here.