Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[Flankerl]

Let me guess there is no clinical evidence which links your illness to vaccination.

So much for that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Of the many lies told by anti-vaccination advocates, this is one of the worst, because it hits on a real moral issue. However, anyone with a modicum of training in biology will tell you that it is impossible for vaccines (or any other injected medicine) to contain human tissue. The reason is simple: if you are injected with anything containing tissue from another person, your body will immediately recognize it as an invader and begin attacking it. This immune response is often quite radical and can easily lead to death! This is why blood from a donor to a recipient must be carefully matched before the recipient can receive it. Thus, there is no human tissue of any kind in vaccines. Unfortunately, the anti-vaccination movement (and even some naive pro- life groups) will try to convince the uninformed that vaccines contain tissue from aborted babies and that abortions must be continually done to supply this tissue to the "evil" drug companies. This is, of course, a bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, this lie is particularly evil, in that it targets a person's morally correct view that abortion is murder.

A full version of this showing where the human cell lines came from is here....Proslogion-Vaccines: The REAL Story - Vaccines DO NOT Contain Fetal Tissu

Vaccinations save many hundreds of thousands of lives each year. Those people who do not vaccinate their children increase the risk to everyone else. by maintaining that particular disease pool.

 

[philbo]

Na, I cannot agree with that, vaccinations are bad, they have caused so much adverse affects, autism being just one of them, but the old FDA keeps it all secret from the ignorant population.

Sorry, but I cannot let ignorant, dangerous rubbish like that pass uncommented.

It couldn't just be the FDA in the US - do you really think that there's a conspiracy within the entire health profession around the whole world pretending that vaccinations work? You may not trust your own FDA, but for that conspiracy to work, it would need to be pretty much every single doctor: are you telling me that all doctors all over the world are lying to us? Why would they? What possible motivation could there be for health professionals to issue vaccines that cause more adverse effects than they cure, not just in the US but *everywhere*?

The research showing autism cannot be related to vaccination comes from many different countries, from governmental, academic and corporate research groups. It simply is not a credible position to hold.

 

[Tiapan]

The ridiculous thing it is often upper class "intelligent" women that refuse to have immunizations for their kids. I am sure when you have close to a billion injections one might expect one or two unique adverse reactions but it is highly unlikely. Eradication of soul destroying diseases smallpox and polio have been a blessing to mankind. To have idiots spout the BS I see above simply indicates and irrational fear of the unknown. A little bit of knowledge can be an extremely dangerous thing.

In Australia the government are refusing entry to kinder and schools if un-immunized, and loss of all child care assistance. I am totally in favor of this line of action. All my kids have been immunized with ZERO adverse reactions, and now they are protected from these awful diseases. I feel sorry for those children who will suffer because of the stupid decisions of their parents.

Cheers

 

[SomeRandom]

I've heard of the toxic additives used in vaccines that are generally considered highly dangerous to humans. But I've also heard vax-supporters argue that the levels of these additives aren't high enough to cause a problem. I'm honestly not sure what to think.

Oh for crying out loud mate. Yes, vaccinations contain mercury, Formaldehyde and other "toxic" chemicals. You know what though? So does everything else in this damned world! You consume more formaldehyde if you eat a freaking apple than if you were to get a jab. If you eat a fish, you would consume far more mercury than is in ANY vaccination. That information is based on what we know about CHEMISTRY on it's flipping own, without even addressing medical science!
Your concern over "toxic" chemicals is the same as people getting worked up over the small amount of radiation you would come into contact with in EVERY social situation. As for your assertion that vaccinations contain aborted fetus cells, (credible) citation needed if you would be so kind?

 

[Augustus]

the thing is the children are becoming more sick with all this crap that's been injected into their system.

Probably less sick than when they had smallpox though...

 

[Madhuri]

Oh for crying out loud mate. Yes, vaccinations contain mercury, Formaldehyde and other "toxic" chemicals. You know what though? So does everything else in this damned world! You consume more formaldehyde if you eat a freaking apple than if you were to get a jab. If you eat a fish, you would consume far more mercury than is in ANY vaccination. That information is based on what we know about CHEMISTRY on it's flipping own, without even addressing medical science!
Your concern over "toxic" chemicals is the same as people getting worked up over the small amount of radiation you would come into contact with in EVERY social situation. As for your assertion that vaccinations contain aborted fetus cells, (credible) citation needed if you would be so kind?

Look up MRC-5 human diploid cells and WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts online. There are plenty of credible sources that mention it being in vaccines, including the World Health Organisation website.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Anti-Vaccination Movement

 

[Madhuri]

Anti-Vaccination Movement

Would you care to comment on the OP? I know the thread got derailed but the point of the thread is to gain insight into the thoughts of religious people.

 

[Madhuri]

In Australia the government are refusing entry to kinder and schools if un-immunized, and loss of all child care assistance. I am totally in favor of this line of action. All my kids have been immunized with ZERO adverse reactions, and now they are protected from these awful diseases. I feel sorry for those children who will suffer because of the stupid decisions of their parents.

You think that unimmunised kids shouldn't be allowed to go to school?

 

[jonathan180iq]

You think that unimmunised kids shouldn't be allowed to go to school?

No. They should not be allowed to participate in any larger community function.

Why?

These nutjobs are willfully exposing themselves and others to very harmful diseases, even in an environment where almost everyone is immune. If there is someone who is susceptible to a disease, then the anti-vac family have openly exposed those individuals to diseases that otherwise would be complete non-entities.

There are plenty of examples of parents who have been incarcerated for refusing medical care to terminally ill children because they preferred to "pray the cancer away", for example. Those children are now dead because of the parent's stupidity. It's negligent murder, right? How is the anti-vaccine movement any different? It's a complete disregard for centuries worth of medical science, in lieu of ignorant opinion and conspiracy theories.

 

[Nietzsche]

Are the dangerous additives, even in small doses, actually necessary for vaccines? I mean you've said there's no link been made officially between vaccination and the harmful consequences. But there are SO MANY people who have said that they have themselves experienced the negative consequences or witnessed it in their own children. I'd be surprised if there isn't a number of the population allergic to ingredients used. So I guess my question is are those ingredients actually vital.

They're preservatives. They stop the culture from dying or being overtaken by some other bacteria.

Well that's you opinion , it means nothing to me, I have been hurt by your crap you call vaccines, have you ????.

I have an autoimmune condition. I take imuno-suppressants for it. When I was at the doctor a few years ago, I caught measles from a girl who hadn't been vaccinated. That nearly killed me.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Would you care to comment on the OP? I know the thread got derailed but the point of the thread is to gain insight into the thoughts of religious people.

Sure.

Babies aren't killed for cell harvesting, for one. The only cell lines that I know of used for harvesting viruses were grown from a sample(s) taken decades ago. The cells used today are obviously not the original cells from that fetus. It's disingenuous to say that vaccines contain the cells of aborted fetus, unless you would also say that all of the human skin cells you consume when you eat at a restaurant makes you a cannibal... It's pure sensationalism. It's true that the root cells in the cell line came from an aborted fetus lung, for example, but not true that the cells came directly from that fetus.

Also, I'm not religious at all so you may not want to hear my opinion.

 

[Madhuri]

No. They should not be allowed to participate in any larger community function.

Why?

These nutjobs are willfully exposing themselves and others to very harmful diseases, even in an environment where almost everyone is immune. If there is someone who is susceptible to a disease, then the anti-vac family have openly exposed those individuals to diseases that otherwise would be complete non-entities.

There are plenty of examples of parents who have been incarcerated for refusing medical care to terminally ill children because they preferred to "pray the cancer away", for example. Those children are now dead because of the parent's stupidity. It's negligent murder, right? How is the anti-vaccine movement any different? It's a complete disregard for centuries worth of medical science, in lieu of ignorant opinion and conspiracy theories.

I've only heard a little bit about the herd immunity. Isn't it only people who are not vaccinated that are susceptible to getting a disease?

I understand your argument but I'm also sympathetic to anti-vaxers who have had terrible experiences. I mean it isn't just a tiny amount of people who get bad reactions. I can count a lot of people I know personally who have had really strong negative reactions to vaccines, including getting the thing they were just vaccinated against. The latest example is from a friend of my mum's who did her nursing degree and started work as a nurse. She is middle aged and never in her life had the flu. She had to get a flu shot in order to work and immediately got the flu afterward. Now she gets the flu regularly. So I do sympathise with people who are afraid of the potential risks.

 

[Madhuri]

Sure.

Babies aren't killed for cell harvesting, for one. The only cell lines that I know of used for harvesting viruses were grown from a sample(s) taken decades ago. The cells used today are obviously not the original cells from that fetus. It's disingenuous to say that vaccines contain the cells of aborted fetus, unless you would also say that all of the human skin cells you consume when you eat at a restaurant makes you a cannibal... It's pure sensationalism. It's true that the root cells in the cell line came from an aborted fetus lung, for example, but not true that the cells came directly from that fetus.

Also, I'm not religious at all so you may not want to hear my opinion.

Your post is still valuable.

 

[jonathan180iq]

They're preservatives. They stop the culture from dying or being overtaken by some other bacteria.


I have an autoimmune condition. I take imuno-suppressants for it. When I was at the doctor a few years ago, I caught measles from a girl who hadn't been vaccinated. That nearly killed me.

 

[SomeRandom]

Look up MRC-5 human diploid cells and WI-38 human diploid lung fibroblasts online. There are plenty of credible sources that mention it being in vaccines, including the World Health Organisation website.

You're the one who brought it up. You're the one who should be doing your homework, not me mate.
But fine, as another poster already stated, what you are describing is most certainly not "vaccines made with the cells of aborted fetuses" and therefore such a claim is not valid or intellectually honest. I will however still do the grunt work if I must (though later, it's been a long day.)

I've only heard a little bit about the herd immunity. Isn't it only people who are not vaccinated that are susceptible to getting a disease?

No, that's not how vaccinations work. You can still get sick even if you are vaccinated, it is usually a much softer form of the disease, so to speak. Vaccinations work through herd immunity, it's not some magical end of all cure. It's more of a "practice" run for your immune system, so if you do get a disease, your body is much more apt in fighting it off in the first place.
Lack of herd immunity also means diseases have time to evolve or become immune to the vaccinations in the first place. So people not getting vaccinations because of "choice" actually affects even the vaccinated, as this forces vaccinations to become obsolete. So well done, guys, really. /sarcasm

Herd immunity works kind of like this. If the absolute most amount of people are vaccinated in a society then there aren't very many hosts for a disease to latch onto. Therefore this not only reduces the amount of people getting sick, it also reduces the chances of diseases mutating or becoming immune to our prevention techniques. Thus it is in EVERYONE'S best interest to not be so full of hubris as to think you know better than medically trained professionals (from various disciplines no less) and reject vaccinations based purely on medical/scientific ignorance.Skepticism is one thing. Pretending that you know better than people who spend years studying this stuff in depth just because you read some "scary stuff" on the Web is kind of really stupid, imho.

Now, newborn babies and people with certain immune disorders (and cancer patients due to some treatments) cannot for medical reasons, get vaccinated. These are the people in society who rely specifically on herd immunity so as to not you know DIE of preventable diseases.

 

[Marisa]

The fact of the matter is that we don't know what causes autism. The most recent research that I'm aware of suggests a possible link between prodigy and autism.

"Child prodigies are unusual for their early and exceptional adoption of what are traditionally thought of as adult abilities. As part of an effort to better understand the underpinnings of these extraordinary individuals' talent, the researcher examined the cognitive and developmental profiles of eight child prodigies by taking their developmental histories and administering the Stanford-Binet 5th ed. full scale intelligence test and the Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ). The collected data reveals a startling picture. While each of the prodigies demonstrated an at least moderately elevated level of intelligence, the prodigies' full scale IQ scores were not consistently on the extreme end of the spectrum. What was consistently extraordinary, however, was the child prodigies' working memory scores—a category in which every prodigy tested in the 99th percentile. Additional results suggest a previously unknown connection between child prodigies and autism. The prodigies' family histories yielded an unlikely number of autistic relatives. And the child prodigies received elevated AQ scores with respect to attention to detail, a trait associated with autism. The prodigies did not, however, display many of the other traits typically associated with autism. This result raises the possibility of a moderated autism that actually enables the prodigies' extraordinary talent."
http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Ruthsatz-Urbach-2012.pdf

 

[Madhuri]

You're the one who brought it up. You're the one who should be doing your homework, not me mate.
But fine, as another poster already stated, what you are describing is most certainly not "vaccines made with the cells of aborted fetuses" and therefore such a claim is not valid or intellectually honest. I will however still do the grunt work if I must (though later, it's been a long day.)

There isn't a lot of homework involves. Seriously, just type it into Google. Loads of pages come up immediately. I said WHO. So here it is:

WHO | Human vaccines
Measles outbreak draws attention to aborted fetal cells in vaccines | News | LifeSite

Current Vaccines Developed Using Human Cell Strains
Two main human cell strains have been used to develop currently available vaccines, in each case with the original fetal cells in question obtained in the 1960s. The WI-38 cell strain was developed in 1961 in the United States, and the MRC-5 cell strain (also started with fetal lung cells) was developed in 1965 in the United Kingdom. No new or additional fetal cells are required in order to sustain the two cell strains.

The vaccines below were developed using either the WI-38 or the MRC-5 cell strains.

• Hepatitis A vaccines [VAQTA/Merck, Havrix/GlaxoSmithKline, and part of Twinrix/GlaxoSmithKline]
• Rubella vaccine [MERUVAX II/Merck, part of MMR II/Merck, and ProQuad/Merck]
• Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine [Varivax/Merck, and part of ProQuad/Merck]
• Zoster (shingles) vaccine [Zostavax/Merck]
• Adenovirus Type 4 and Type 7 oral vaccine [Barr Labs] *
• Rabies vaccine [IMOVAX/Sanofi Pasteur] *

Human Cell Strains in Vaccine Development — History of Vaccines

 

[jonathan180iq]

I've only heard a little bit about the herd immunity. Isn't it only people who are not vaccinated that are susceptible to getting a disease?

I understand your argument but I'm also sympathetic to anti-vaxers who have had terrible experiences. I mean it isn't just a tiny amount of people who get bad reactions. I can count a lot of people I know personally who have had really strong negative reactions to vaccines, including getting the thing they were just vaccinated against. The latest example is from a friend of my mum's who did her nursing degree and started work as a nurse. She is middle aged and never in her life had the flu. She had to get a flu shot in order to work and immediately got the flu afterward. Now she gets the flu regularly. So I do sympathise with people who are afraid of the potential risks.

We aren't talking about things like the flu, though. The loudest voices in this Anti-Vax thing are talking about completely abstaining from all vaccinations...All of them...

There's some very serious **** out there that at one time had the ability to kill off entire towns worth of children when it hit. Just travel to small-town cemeteries from the early 1900s and ask them to show you the children's section. It's not a joke. You'll see dozen of little graves all with very similar birth and death dates. One kid would get sick, go to school, infect every other kid, and they would start to die off, one by one, because we didn't know anything about vaccinations. What happens today when a kid at school gets sick? Our kids might get the sniffles? I'll take that over death.

We, as a society, no longer have to worry about things like our children dying from a cough because of vaccinations.

Temporal vaccinations, like the flu vaccine, are something you need to read about. They are designed to not be effective for the current flu-strand, but for what is anticipated to be coming. I personally don't bother with the flu vaccine for this reason and I usually spend 2-5 days a year dealing with it, but that's got nothing at all to do with vaccine philiosophy or some other bogus idea. I just don't want to spend money on something I can deal with on my own. When/if I get sick, I quarantine myself and wait until I'm no longer contagious, because that's the responsible thing to do.