Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[Lighthouse]

“When you’re newly vaccinated you are an asymptomatic carrier, which is good for you, but not for the population,” said Tod J. Merkel, the lead author of the study, who is a researcher in the Office of Vaccines Research and Review in the Food and Drug Administration.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lighthouse your a god sent, you know what your talking about and I admire you, thank you.

He's spreading lies about vaccines and misinformation about basic biology an pathology. He says things that are easily demonstrated to be false, such as claiming vaccines really don't help prevent the disease, but the facts are that things like polio are rare in places that have the vaccine and is found in the unvaccinated, and also in places that don't even have the vaccine.

 

[Sapiens]

Where do I start? A few of the many:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/baboon-study-reveals-new-shortcoming-of-pertussis-vaccine/

http://www.nvic.org/CMSTemplates/NVIC/pdf/Live-Virus-Vaccines-and-Vaccine-Shedding.pdf

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24076325/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053391.htm where the CDC themselves acknowledge they can shed.

Somehow your mind is able to bypass and ignore any other science it doesn't want to see. Perhaps a self-investigation on to why that is may do you well.

I know, you already know everything.

What a waste of everyone's time. The Sci-Am article is subtitled "The shortcomings of the whooping cough vaccine may help explain the disease's resurgence." That says it all. Pertussis vaccines have always been problematical. What you are saying is that because you've had problems with a Yugo you'll not drive a Toyota.

The NVIC and Barbara Loe Fisher are hardly dependable sources, they're nutcases.

The articular by Hsieh YC, et al. in Vaccine. 2014 summarizes by stating, "Clinical significance of higher shedding viral loads in RV2 should be further observed." I don't know what point you were trying to make but the study does not seem to support any of your claims since it has been shown that the shedding of virus by recently vaccinated people is rarely causes complications in the vaccinated person and that vaccine strain viral shedding rarely causes disease in close contacts of the recently vaccinated. Can it cause problems? Maybe, rarely, in few cases. The anti-vaccine paranoids are big on weasel words especially, "may"and "can" as in, "you may be killed in a traffic accident on your way to the doctor," or "a fall can break a bone." They are spouting base canards of the first order.

Here are the only two mentions of shedding in the CDC article:

Sporadic nosocomial cases of mumps have occurred in long-term care facilities housing adolescents and young adults (122). However, mumps virus is less transmissible than measles and other respiratory viruses. The low level of mumps transmission in the community results in a low risk for introduction of the disease into health-care facilities. Because mumps is shed by infected persons before clinical symptoms become evident and because infected persons often remain asymptomatic, an effective routine MMR vaccination program for health-care workers is the best approach to prevent nosocomial transmission.

Measles can be severe and prolonged among immunocompromised persons, particularly those who have certain leukemias, lymphomas, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. Among these persons, measles may occur without the typical rash and a patient may shed measles virus for several weeks after the acute illness (6,7). Measles Elimination

Note that neither supports your claims.

 

[Sapiens]

The science just really isn't there. A strong lack of mental faculty lingers in those whom do not see this. Mistaking very flawed, poor methodology, no replicated results or replicated methods for sound science makes science look bad. To many scientists, their reputation is a large matter too.
You have spoken accurately, some are ignorant of the science because the sound science is just not there.
Pretending something is existent where it is non-existent I believe the proper term used in the field is called delusion. And correlation does not imply causation in science.

You have made no case for you claims, just personal unqualified claims, misreading of the literature and citations of fringe self-proclaimed "experts" that are dismissed by the mainstream. You are wasting everyone's time here.

 

[Lighthouse]

What a waste of everyone's time. The Sci-Am article is subtitled "The shortcomings of the whooping cough vaccine may help explain the disease's resurgence." That says it all. Pertussis vaccines have always been problematical. What you are saying is that because you've had problems with a Yugo you'll not drive a Toyota.

The NVIC and Barbara Loe Fisher are hardly dependable sources, they're nutcases.

The articular by Hsieh YC, et al. in Vaccine. 2014 summarizes by stating, "Clinical significance of higher shedding viral loads in RV2 should be further observed." I don't know what point you were trying to make but the study does not seem to support any of your claims since it has been shown that the shedding of virus by recently vaccinated people is rarely causes complications in the vaccinated person and that vaccine strain viral shedding rarely causes disease in close contacts of the recently vaccinated. Can it cause problems? Maybe, rarely, in few cases. The anti-vaccine paranoids are big on weasel words especially, "may"and "can" as in, "you may be killed in a traffic accident on your way to the doctor," or "a fall can break a bone." They are spouting base canards of the first order.

Here are the only two mentions of shedding in the CDC article:

Sporadic nosocomial cases of mumps have occurred in long-term care facilities housing adolescents and young adults (122). However, mumps virus is less transmissible than measles and other respiratory viruses. The low level of mumps transmission in the community results in a low risk for introduction of the disease into health-care facilities. Because mumps is shed by infected persons before clinical symptoms become evident and because infected persons often remain asymptomatic, an effective routine MMR vaccination program for health-care workers is the best approach to prevent nosocomial transmission.

Measles can be severe and prolonged among immunocompromised persons, particularly those who have certain leukemias, lymphomas, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. Among these persons, measles may occur without the typical rash and a patient may shed measles virus for several weeks after the acute illness (6,7). Measles Elimination

Note that neither supports your claims.

You do realize that you shared a title, agree with that title, and then condescend on that title all simultaneously.

I believe it's the herd mentality who spreads paranoia regarding vaccines. What are you so paranoid about if someone is unvaccinated? Get vaccinated or what? What happens?

What is your point? You can find the same research in numerous places. Pick and choose your opinions on each author and/or researcher. You don't like someone, sure... your opinion on them is irrelevant. The results remain the same.

You may and can be killed in numerous ways. What is weasel about truth?

Irrelevant. The CDC says "can and may." Why do they use weasel words? Once again, the claim is true in that vaccines do, can, and may spread disease. Has been shown to. Not even a need to use "can and may." The CDC will always downplay any negative significance.

 

[Lighthouse]

You have made no case for you claims, just personal unqualified claims, misreading of the literature and citations of fringe self-proclaimed "experts" that are dismissed by the mainstream. You are wasting everyone's time here.

All you have to do, sir, is direct me to where these vaccines have been replicated by the scientific community with no conflict of interest, and I will eat my words. It's really that simple. Stop wasting time with red herrings, opinions, and nonsense.

Here has been the case: they are not replicated and the methodology is flawed. True.
You seem to be implying that they have. False.

They do shed and spread. True.
You seem to be implying that they don't. False.

 

[Lighthouse]

He's spreading lies about vaccines and misinformation about basic biology an pathology. He says things that are easily demonstrated to be false, such as claiming vaccines really don't help prevent the disease, but the facts are that things like polio are rare in places that have the vaccine and is found in the unvaccinated, and also in places that don't even have the vaccine.

The wisest and most intelligent words you can say are "I don't know."

You are not all knowing of biology, the human immune system, and pathology. This is the biggest misinformation you are spreading.

Here are also facts you seem to not be able to comprehend:
Polio is found in the vaccinated. Mutated strains from the polio vaccine are showing up. Polio is found in places of the vaccinated.

Correlation doesn't imply causation. The redundant saying of "vaccines did it" doesn't make it so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The wisest and most intelligent words you can say are "I don't know."

Saying "I don't know" is reserved exclusively for things I don't know. But I do know when it comes to vaccines, because I've read a chunk of the research.

You are not all knowing of biology, the human immune system, and pathology. This is the biggest misinformation you are spreading.

I never claimed to be all knowing in those fields, or even an expert.

Mutated strains from the polio vaccine are showing up.

That would be evolution at work, not a failure of the vaccines.

The redundant saying of "vaccines did it" doesn't make it so.

It does make it so because it's been so very thoroughly studied.

 

[Sapiens]

Lighthouse, you're missing the point(s).

Shedding is only an issue if you are unprotected by nursing and by vaccine. I (and mine) will outlive you (and yours) because we are protected. It's just like wearing your seat-belt in the car or helmet on a bike or avoiding unprotected sex.

Your criticism of non replication is crap, all vaccine licencing studies are conducted at multiple independent sites.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse, you're missing the point(s).

Shedding is only an issue if you are unprotected by nursing and by vaccine. I (and mine) will outlive you (and yours) because we are protected. It's just like wearing your seat-belt in the car or helmet on a bike or avoiding unprotected sex.

Your criticism of non replication is crap, all vaccine licencing studies are conducted at multiple independent sites.

Shedding is an issue in all regards. It is ignorant to segregate "the vaccinated" and the "unvaccinated." It is false profiling.
Vaccination and immunization are separate.
My wife has never been vaccinated and is positive for immunization. I have received every vaccine and I am negative for immunization. Ironically, that would make an unvaccinated not dangerous and part of the herd whereas the vaccinated is dangerous and not part of the herd. Many are ignorant to these simple facts.
Those that are vaccinated have significant waning and significant reduction of effectiveness and become unprotected. Those that receive full recommended vaccination schedules never become immune in the first place. They live on placebo. Believing they are something they are not. Those that have never received a single vaccination have immunity. Those that have not received a single vaccination are not immune.

It is the equivalent of wearing a seat belt or condom until you hit your teen years and the protection vanishes on its own using your analogy.

It is not crap, the pharms do their alleged research and pass it off the CDC/FDA (which are all linked in conflict of interest) in which they review the literature and approve. Many in the community are aware of the replication crisis in science, particularly the mental and of the medicine. It is more based upon blind faith, rather than public replication of results and sound science. I'd prefer to trust in worldwide replicated results as opposed to non-replicated results and I know that you would as well. If the science is sound and true, as I said earlier.... replication would be gladly welcomed for the love of genuine science and genuine truth.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse, you're missing the point(s).

Shedding is only an issue if you are unprotected by nursing and by vaccine. I (and mine) will outlive you (and yours) because we are protected. It's just like wearing your seat-belt in the car or helmet on a bike or avoiding unprotected sex.

Your criticism of non replication is crap, all vaccine licencing studies are conducted at multiple independent sites.

Also shedding light, sound science is not removed or re-called. It remains.
I'll ask you this, how much of this stuff has been removed or recalled which was once deemed thoroughly studied, researched, and dubbed safe and effective? What lied? Was it sound science or do they end up being pseudoscience?

 

[Sapiens]

Shedding is an issue in all regards. It is ignorant to segregate "the vaccinated" and the "unvaccinated." It is false profiling.

Ignorant? Hardly.

Vaccination and immunization are separate.

Yeah ... as are cause and effect.

My wife has never been vaccinated and is positive for immunization.

Then she had a sub-clinical case, can happen

I have received every vaccine and I am negative for immunization.

My condolences on your ineffective immunize system, that's a real problem. Were it not for herd immunity, there's a good chance you'd be dead by now (depending upon the disease we are talking about here).

Ironically, that would make an unvaccinated not dangerous

They are dangerous to me mine, unfortunately you are being selected against and as result are also dangerous to me and mine, so we buckle up get vaccinated.

and part of the herd whereas the vaccinated is dangerous and not part of the herd. Many are ignorant to these simple facts.

No, we have healthy immune systems, I am truly sorry that you do not, but that does not mean that we should endanger everyone else in a major way to provide a small degree of safety to you. Sorry, that's reality.

Those that are vaccinated have significant waning and significant reduction of effectiveness and become unprotected.

Depends on the disease and the vaccination history.

Those that receive full recommended vaccination schedules never become immune in the first place. They live on placebo. Believing they are something they are not. Those that have never received a single vaccination have immunity. Those that have not received a single vaccination are not immune.

You are talking about statistically insignificant numbers and inflating them to significance because of your own unfortunate circumstance.

It is not crap, the pharms do their alleged research and pass it off the CDC/FDA (which are all linked in conflict of interest) in which they review the literature and approve. Many in the community are aware of the replication crisis in science, particularly the mental and of the medicine. It is more based upon blind faith, rather than public replication of results and sound science. I'd prefer to trust in worldwide replicated results as opposed to non-replicated results and I know that you would as well. If the science is sound and true, as I said earlier.... replication would be gladly welcomed for the love of genuine science and genuine truth.

I agree that no one wants to fund replication studies (except in licensing trials) ... in any area of science, until there is some evidence brought forward that there is a problem. That is why there are currently Pertussis studies ongoing.

 

[Lighthouse]

Saying "I don't know" is reserved exclusively for things I don't know. But I do know when it comes to vaccines, because I've read a chunk of the research.

I never claimed to be all knowing in those fields, or even an expert.

That would be evolution at work, not a failure of the vaccines.

It does make it so because it's been so very thoroughly studied.

Has not been so thoroughly studied. Little is known. Anyone intelligent knows more research is required before making assumptions of knowing.
We are talking about a virulent strain that evolved from the vaccine itself, not natural polio evolving on its own.

 

[Lighthouse]

Ignorant? Hardly.
Yeah ... as are cause and effect.
Then she had a sub-clinical case, can happen
My condolences on your ineffective immunize system, that's a real problem. Were it not for herd immunity, there's a good chance you'd be dead by now (depending upon the disease we are talking about here).
They are dangerous to me mine, unfortunately you are being selected against and as result are also dangerous to me and mine, so we buckle up get vaccinated.
No, we have healthy immune systems, I am truly sorry that you do not, but that does not mean that we should endanger everyone else in a major way to provide a small degree of safety to you. Sorry, that's reality.
Depends on the disease and the vaccination history.
You are talking about statistically insignificant numbers and inflating them to significance because of your own unfortunate circumstance.

I agree that no one wants to fund replication studies (except in licensing trials) ... in any area of science, until there is some evidence brought forward that there is a problem. That is why there are currently Pertussis studies ongoing.

I am healthy, and my immune system is doing well. What was your need to lie? Do you have trouble with self control?

My immune system is not ineffective. The vaccines were ineffective.. that's a real problem. Again, what's with the need to lie?

The circumstance is not unfortunate. Why the need to lie?

I am not paranoid as you are. I do not need protection from anyone, why are you paranoid?

No one is dangerous to you and yours if your vaccines work. Why the need to keep lying? Do your vaccines not work or something?

 

[psychoslice]

A strange comment considering that opinion flies in the face of the facts.

Yes facts that you are meant to believe in.

 

[Sapiens]

I am healthy, and my immune system is doing well. What was your need to lie? Do you have trouble with self control?

My immune system is not ineffective. The vaccines were ineffective.. that's a real problem. Again, what's with the need to lie?

The circumstance is not unfortunate. Why the need to lie?

I am not paranoid as you are. I do not need protection from anyone, why are you paranoid?

No one is dangerous to you and yours if your vaccines work. Why the need to keep lying? Do your vaccines not work or something?

Your post could not be more clear. It shows clear signs of paranoid delusion. One one hand you admit to not responding to a vaccine the way "normal" people do, and then you get all aggressive, and start calling names and insisting that a non-responsive immune system is not ineffective, akin to white is black, or up is down. You need to get a grip on yourself. Since the vaccines work (I know, I've been exposed to smallpox, polio, and pertussis, at least, and not gotten sick), the question remains why do they not work for you? I'd call that a defective immune system. We all have biological defects, why do you have trouble accepting yours? So much trouble that you can not understand that there are times when the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Has not been so thoroughly studied. Little is known. Anyone intelligent knows more research is required before making assumptions of knowing.

It has been studied a bunch of times. I don't know of any thing else that has been so thoroughly studied. There is tons and tons of research into it.

We are talking about a virulent strain that evolved from the vaccine itself, not natural polio evolving on its own.

Which is still evolution at work and not a failure of the vaccine.

 

[Lighthouse]

Your post could not be more clear. It shows clear signs of paranoid delusion. One one hand you admit to not responding to a vaccine the way "normal" people do, and then you get all aggressive, and start calling names and insisting that a non-responsive immune system is not ineffective, akin to white is black, or up is down. You need to get a grip on yourself. Since the vaccines work (I know, I've been exposed to smallpox, polio, and pertussis, at least, and not gotten sick), the question remains why do they not work for you? I'd call that a defective immune system. We all have biological defects, why do you have trouble accepting yours? So much trouble that you can not understand that there are times when the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

A bold claim yet again of knowing. Here is your theory:

"An ineffective vaccine means someone's health is poor and their immune system is ineffective and defective." Get over yourself. You are being ignorant and arrogant likely because that's all you know how to do when shown you are wrong.

 

[Lighthouse]

Your post could not be more clear. It shows clear signs of paranoid delusion. One one hand you admit to not responding to a vaccine the way "normal" people do, and then you get all aggressive, and start calling names and insisting that a non-responsive immune system is not ineffective, akin to white is black, or up is down. You need to get a grip on yourself. Since the vaccines work (I know, I've been exposed to smallpox, polio, and pertussis, at least, and not gotten sick), the question remains why do they not work for you? I'd call that a defective immune system. We all have biological defects, why do you have trouble accepting yours? So much trouble that you can not understand that there are times when the good of the many outweighs the good of the few.

The aggression is yours, the condenscensing is yours, the name calling is yours. The paranoid delusion of others being dangerous and a threat is yours. Calling someone unhealthy, ineffective and defective is yours.

The simple explanation are that vaccines are ineffective and that the natural immune system rejected such toxins.

You are a troubled man that needs to point the finger at himself. Thanks for your time. Your arrogance is overflowing and there is no reasonable discussion with such a mind. Take care bud.

 

[Lighthouse]

It has been studied a bunch of times. I don't know of any thing else that has been so thoroughly studied. There is tons and tons of research into it.

Which is still evolution at work and not a failure of the vaccine.

Shadow, are you aware that the neurology, immunology of the adult, let alone developing children, the short-mid-long term effects of vaccines are unknown yet are claiming they are thoroughly studied and perhaps more thorough than any other science? How is this possible, to know the yet unknown?