Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[Shadow Wolf]

No, no fear whatsoever with me, in fact I see the fear in you, in your reason to want to vaccinate everything in sight, they were even at one stage talking about vaccines for kids so they wont want to become alcoholics, how that's going to work is a mystery, you name it they want to vaccinate it lol.

You are obviously very afraid or you wouldn't harp on about how "dangerous" vaccines are.

 

[philbo]

Yea more lies.

You're calling me a liar? I hope you have some evidence to back up that assertion, because if you don't I'd like an apology, please.

Vaccines provide huge profits for pharmaceutical manufacturers ...

It may seem like a large number, but it's still a small percentage.

Ben Goldacre has also spoken many times about the way his criticisms of the pharma industry are misused by, well, people like you. It's a bit hypocritical to post his description of how research journals can skew perspective as though that's the way every single bit of research in every single publication comes out - if you read his books (if you read nothing else this year, read Bad Science), you'll see just how poorly he rates exactly the sort of cherry-picking you've just indulged in here.

Yes, drugs companies indulge in underhand behaviour to make it look like their new drugs perform better than they actually do; this, however, is light years away from the quantity of research done on vaccine safety from people who have no links to drug companies whatsoever. If vaccines were causing harm the way some people assert, we'd have a genocide on our hands that simply couldn't be covered up. It is a truly ridiculous position to hold given the evidence available: if there were any evidence of vaccine damage, there would be untold millions of cases- think about the numbers of people vaccinated.

 

[Nietzsche]

You're calling me a liar? I hope you have some evidence to back up that assertion, because if you don't I'd like an apology, please.

I think you've forgotten who you're "debating" with.

 

[Nietzsche]

Please, I'm sure you have a brain in there somewhere

Alright, gotta be honest here.

Yea more lies.

He might have a point. On this particular bit anyway.

 

[InChrist]

One big problem is that the article you posted cites studies that cite Andrew Wakefield, a known fraud on this very topic, and boasts about these studies as if they prove the anti-vaxxers case and pro-vaxxers are just turning a blind eye to the truth.

You can't go on about fraudulent misconduct and misleading information while waving Andrew Wakefield in our faces and expect to be taken seriously.

You are sure following the standard playbook response the article pointed out.

First, the article certainly does not wave Dr. Wakefield in your face. What about these doctors and studies listed in the article?

"Pretend that doctors and scientists who are critical of vaccines – doctors like Dr. Suzanne Humphries, Dr. Robert Sears, Dr. Kenneth Stoller, Dr. Robert Rowen, Dr. Janet Levatin, Dr. Stephanie Cave, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, Dr. Meryl Nass, Dr. Jay Gordon, Dr. Jane Orient, and many of the members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, CDC researcher Dr. William Thompson, and all of the doctors and scientists listed here and here – don’t exist. Because really, if you don’t write about them, they don’t."
"Just be sure not to mention any of the ones that do show a connection, like this one, this one or this one. Be especially careful not to mention this one, this one, or any of these, these or these."
First They Came for the Anti-Vaxxers – LewRockwell.com

Secondly, Dr. Andrew Wakefield has been vindicated by the revelations of William Thompson, a scientist with the CDC for over two decades, who stated that studies linking the MMR vaccine to autism were kept hidden.
Whistleblower Says CDC Knew in 2003 of Higher Autism Rate Among African-American Boys Receiving MMR Shot Earlier Than 36 Months - AGE OF AUTISM

And...

"The British Medical Journal also failed to disclose that its own finances are largely funded by vaccine manufacturers who fill the journal with paid advertising, and that such financial ties may have influenced the journal's decision to attempt to destroy the reputation of a researcher whose findings threatened the profits of its top sponsors. If you follow the money in this story, in other words, it leads right to the editors of BMJ, whose salaries are effectively financed by vaccine manufacturers. This all-important conflict of interest is almost never discussed in the mainstream media, by the way.

In light of the evidence that has now been made public, clearing Dr Andrew Wakefield of any wrongdoing, Dr Wakefield is publicly demanding that the BMJ issue a full retraction of its Brian Deer article accusing Dr Wakefield of fabricating the data. His statement is entitled, "Uncovered Documents Prove There Was No Fraud in Lancet Case Series" and is included here in its entirety' :
Learn more: Dr Wakefield demands retraction from BMJ after documents prove innocence from allegations of vaccine autism data fraud - NaturalNews.com


Wakefield is not a fraud - His study linking MMR vaccine to autism vindicated - NaturalNews.com

 

[InChrist]

Yes, drugs companies indulge in underhand behaviour to make it look like their new drugs perform better than they actually do; this, however, is light years away from the quantity of research done on vaccine safety from people who have no links to drug companies whatsoever. If vaccines were causing harm the way some people assert, we'd have a genocide on our hands that simply couldn't be covered up. It is a truly ridiculous position to hold given the evidence available: if there were any evidence of vaccine damage, there would be untold millions of cases- think about the numbers of people vaccinated.

Do you really believe that those doing the research on vaccines have no link whatsoever to the pharmaceutical companies? Just one example of such a link is Dr. Paul Offit.

'Dr. Paul Offit as an expert on vaccine safety. He’s introduced as “director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia” and he “denies a connection with vaccination and autism.”

Somehow, it goes unreported that Offit has made millions (he won’t disclose exactly how much) inventing a vaccine for Merck, which makes the MMR vaccine in question. Offit’s rotavirus vaccine has, itself, been the subject of safety concerns. And his employment at Children’s Hospital has been funded in part by $1.5 million given by Merck. In addition, he got caught giving false and disparaging information regarding a report I did exposing his financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry he so vigorously defends. His false statements were corrected by the publication that originally reported them. And Offit and his book publisher settled a libel accusation by a vaccine safety advocate who accused Offit of fabricating a disparaging conversation in his book: Autism’s False Prophets. Offit agreed to apologize, correct the book and make a donation to an autism charity.

But to the news: none of that matters. Offit is simply presented as an unbiased expert."
What the News Isn’t Saying About Vaccine-Autism Studies | Sharyl Attkisson

Yes, huge numbers of people are vaccinated, especially children. Maybe, the evidence you claim is not there linking vaccines to negative health just isn't being researched, is ignored, or even covered up for the sake of monetary gain. Why are there such dramatic increases of childhood cancers, diabetes, allergies, auto-immune issues, learning disabilities and autism...since children are required to get 50 or so injections of 14 different vaccines by the time they are school age?

 

[philbo]

Do you really believe that those doing the research on vaccines have no link whatsoever to the pharmaceutical companies? Just one example of such a link is Dr. Paul Offit.

Do you really believe that every single person who has done research in this area has financial links to pharmaceutical companies? How big a conspiracy theorist are you, FFS?

Of course some of them do, but universities, health departments and governments in dozens of different countries do their own research. It would be blindingly obvious to everyone concerned if pharma-controlled researchers came up with one story while those unconnected came up with another.

 

[philbo]

Yes, huge numbers of people are vaccinated, especially children. Maybe, the evidence you claim is not there linking vaccines to negative health just isn't being researched, is ignored, or even covered up for the sake of monetary gain. Why are there such dramatic increases of childhood cancers, diabetes, allergies, auto-immune issues, learning disabilities and autism...since children are required to get 50 or so injections of 14 different vaccines by the time they are school age?

Do I really have to repeat "correlation != causation"? - there are an awful lot of things that have changed over the past few decades, to fixate on vaccines as being the only possible causative agent is ridiculous.. even if these "dramatic increases" to which you refer are more than changes in reporting/diagnosis or a figment of your imagination.

In the case of autism, the link with vaccines has been researched to death - the last study I linked to earlier in this thread covered more than 95,000 children. But some innumerate, blinkered fanatics still refuse to accept this.

 

[psychoslice]

If I did that I'd still believe in Jesus.

maybe you still do ?.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yea more lies.

Where are the lies??

 

[psychoslice]

Where are the lies??

There right where you are looking.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Dear dear, everything is a fraud to you, no matter what is presented to you, and hence why I don't wast my time. showing you and other here anything

Dear, dear. Andrew Wakefield has been exposed as a fraud. Please take in and process facts.

**No other researchers have been able to replicate his findings or confirm his hypothesis that the MMR vaccine is associated with autism or gastrointestinal disease.


**The British General Medical Council charged him with dozens of counts of dishonesty, abuse of developmentally challenged children, acting against the interests of his patients, stating that he “failed in his duties as a responsible consultant.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20130512115524/http://www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf

**Ten out of thirteen of the original co-authors of the paper with Wakefield have all retracted the paper’s interpretations. The journal the paper was published in (The Lancet) has since retracted the study as well.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(97)11096-0/abstract

Lancet retracts 12-year-old article linking autism to MMR vaccines


**Andrew Wakefield’s name has been removed from the UK Medical Register and has been barred from practicing medicine in the UK.

“Dr Wakefield has demonstrated a persistent lack of insight and has insisted in many instances on his ethical propriety: in the context of the referral process and the treatment of the children in the research project in which he was engaged; in the context of the funding of the project; with regard to the terminology of the Lancet paper; with regard to his non-declaration of interests; with regard to not acting in the best clinical interests of the Lancet children and with regard to obtaining blood from children at a birthday party. …

… the Panel has determined that Dr Wakefield’s name should be erased from the medical register. The Panel concluded that it is the only sanction that is appropriate to protect patients and is in the wider public interest, including the maintenance of public trust and confidence in the profession and is proportionate to the serious and wide-ranging findings made against him.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20130512115524/http://www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf



So yeah, we’re talking about actual fraud here.

 

[SkepticThinker]

There right where you are looking.

Can. You. Point. Them. Out?

 

[psychoslice]

Can. You. Point. Them. Out?

Na, you find them yourself, I'm too lazy lol.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Na, you find them yourself, I'm too lazy lol.

I don't see them. Hence my question.

I'm sure being intellectually lazy on this subject is a good thing. /sarc

 

[Kalibhakta]

Am I the only person here who appreciates the irony that the main anti-vax person here is fond of a man whose group committed one of the only two bio-terror attacks sense 1945?

Osho's followers had a good knowledge of biology, it seems

 

[psychoslice]

Am I the only person here who appreciates the irony that the main anti-vax person here is fond of a man whose group committed one of the only two bio-terror attacks sense 1945?

Osho's followers had a good knowledge of biology, it seems

Its only the ignorant that don't know who Osho really was, don't believe everything you read, find out for yourself.

 

[Kalibhakta]

This is Osho in his own words

Osho on Eugenic Euthanasia:

Spoiler

If a child is born blind or crippled, if a child is born deaf, dumb, and we cannot do anything.... Just because life should not be destroyed, this child will have to suffer – because of your stupid idea – for seventy years, eighty years. Why create unnecessary suffering? If the parents are willing, the child should be put to eternal sleep. And there is no problem in it. Only the body goes back into its basic elements; the soul will fly into another womb. Nothing is destroyed.
Osho The Greatest Challenge: The Golden Future

Osho on the kindness of Hitler and deserving nature of the Holocaust:

Spoiler

In fact, Adolf Hitler's violence with the Jews was far more peaceful, because he killed people in the most up-to-date gas chambers, where you don't take much time. Thousands of people can be put in a gas chamber, and just a switch is pressed. Within a second you will not know when you were alive and when you died. Within a second, you evaporate. The chimneys of the factory start taking you, the smoke -- you can call it the holy smoke -- and this seems to be a direct way towards God. The smoke simply goes upwards
Osho From Death to Deathlessness – Answers to the Seekers on the Path, English Discourse series, 1985, chapter 15

And still you want me that I should not speak against these people -- Buddha, Mahavira? I have to speak. To me these are far bigger criminals than Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, because those people have done very small harm. One million Jews Adolf Hitler killed, but how many poor people Mahavira has killed? And living in poverty is far more dangerous, far more suffering than dying in a beautifully, scientifically managed gas chamber in Germany. Within a second you are smoke, holy smoke, rather than suffering for millions of years.
Osho The Last Testament, Vol 1

You will throw stones at me, you will throw stones at the Truth - but from the stones a fire will come up and burn you."

You cannot burn Truth, you cannot crucify Truth. You crucified Jesus. That is why I was saying yesterday that when Jesus was crucified by the Jews, he was not crucified - they crucified themselves. And the fire has been burning since then, and they avoid and they escape from the fire - but it follows. You can throw stones, but Truth is never hurt.

The moment you throw stones at the Truth, it means that you will be hurt finally, you will burn; a fire will come out of your own stones. And this is the whole history of the Jews: for twenty centuries continuously, they have been burning. And I am not saying that those who have been torturing them are right. No! I am not a supporter of Hitler, or others who have been burning or destroying Jews; no, they are not doing right. The Jews are carrying their wound within themselves - they create their Hitlers. ...

Jews are always in search of their Adolf Hitlers, someone who can kill them - then they feel at ease. ... And I tell you, unless they reclaim Jesus, they will remain in trouble.

Can you conceive of anything more criminal than to crucify a Buddha, to crucify a Jesus, to crucify a Krishna? ... This wound will follow the Jews. It is difficult to get rid of it - unless they reclaim Jesus.

Osho The Mustard Seed: A Living explanation of the sayings of Jesus from the Gospel according to Thomas

Osho's rampant homophobia:

Spoiler

So sexual energy runs parallel in two ways. On one hand it produces children, on the other hand it can produce in you a new being. Homosexuality destroys both. And do you want me to call it a natural thing? It is destructive, it is perversion. I can understand that it may be hurting you. But if you have cancer and the doctor says to you, "It is cancer," it hurts, but it has to be said; otherwise there is no way to operate upon you, to remove the cancer. And homosexuality has become far more dangerous than cancer. Nobody was intentionally moving in that direction, but that's how things happen - in the unknown, in the darkness.

Homosexuals, because they were perverted, created the disease AIDS. Heterosexuality creates life - life for your children and a divine life for you. Homosexuality is absolutely barren; it does not create anything. Slowly slowly, as it spread... perhaps it has been happening and we were not aware of it.
....
Homosexuals should be given different localities. They can live in their own world, in their own way, and be happy, but they should not be allowed to move in the wider society, spreading all kinds of dangerous viruses.

But nobody seems to do anything about it. There are deserts, there are islands uninhabited. Just give them to homosexuals. Divide the world into heterosexual and homosexual - and there should be no communication between them.
Osho Hari Om Tat Sat – The Divine Sound That is the Truth, Discourse 6

As a homosexual you are not even a human being, what to say about a second-class citizen? You have fallen from dignity. I have great love for you, but that does not mean that I will support your perversion. You love me, but your love is meaningless if you cannot understand what I am saying. Be heterosexual. Homosexuality is just a habit that you have got, an ugly habit. Drop it. It is simply a question of dropping it, because it is not natural. Wild animals in the jungle are never homosexual; but in zoos, where females are not available, they turn into homosexuals. All your monasteries are zoos! Why are you becoming part of a zoo? Gather courage: Why are you afraid of a woman? My love is for you. That’s why I am condemning homosexuality continually — because I want you to become natural again.
From Bondage to Freedom - Answers to the Seekers on the Path, English Discourse series, 1985, chapter 16

This is not how a man who knows God talks. This is not how Ramakrishna, or Chaitanya would talk, or Lord Buddha would talk. A man who is so filled with hate and disgust for whole classes of people, who lived in opulent wealth with a fleet of Rolls Royses...is it no wonder why his followers where so violent and hateful too?

 

[psychoslice]

Osho was a great man, to me he was higher than Jesus, even the Buddha, you just have to understand what he is truly saying, yes people gave him all sorts of gifts, he took them played with them and gave them away.

 

[Flankerl]

Osho was a great man, ... you just have to understand what he is truly saying

Please be our new Adolf Hitler. We are apparently searching for one.