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Vamachara
- Thread starter EtuMalku
- Start date
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Vamachara is just one of many paths of Tantra. In the West and among many Indians this is all people think about when it comes to Tantra.
Vamachara is translated "left handed path" this is a pejorative term. In many parts of the world were they don't use toilet paper. You eat only with your right hand and you wipe you butt with your left. So since the Islamic conquest of India many translate Vamachara as the dirty path or the path of Crap.
There is no reason to translate the word in this manor. It should be called the path of the beloved. It is the path of taking the things you do in life and "spiritualize" them to transcend the pairs of opposites; Good and Evil, clean and unclean, like and dislike ect... So Tantra devolped rituals around 5 things Wine, Sex, Meat, Fish, Grains. You engage in these rituals to transcend the pairs of opposites.
So they have ritual to drink wine or have sex (with a few groups it sometimes not done with your spouse), that way it is much more exciting and it is easier to get at the root desire). The ideal for a man is to have sex and not have an orgasm or do a religious ritual with a hot young naked women on your lap and not get aroused and keep your mind on God. Other practices are around sex with you wife and using it to reach higher states of conciseness. I think the Grains are when you do your spiritual practice (Japa,Puja ect) sitting on a dead body and put grains in its mouth. Some times they sit on a platform resting on 5 types of animal skulls (one being human). This is to transcend the fear of death. Meat and fish are because many Hindu's do not eat it.
Just to say this one more time Most Tantrics do not engage in the practice of Vamachara. Most Tantric teachers do not teach Vamachara.
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Yes.... But.... Hindu's have no need for atonement we have no original sin. A spiritual path is not because we need to keep our selves out of trouble with a god. It is to reach our personal ideal of perfection. That might be Love of Krishna, knowledge of the TRUTH, or just being a good member of society.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Interesting indeed. I understand what your saying. Perhaps my use of the word 'atonement' was a poor choice, I use the term in the sense of "at One ment' or rather at one with the Universe. But that's besides the point.
Since I have your ear, do you know anything about Nada Yoga? (Nada Brahma)
Since I have your ear, do you know anything about Nada Yoga? (Nada Brahma)
Arav
Jain
EtuMalku,
I know this was intended for Wannabe Yogi, but from what I know Nada Yoga is a yoga that deals with vibration and sounds. They believe that vibration is what keeps the universe together and that sounds and other vibrations can lead to a deeper oneness with the universe. They use music and sometimes talk about listening to their "inner sound" or their own Anahata. That is their meditation.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Hare Krsna
EtuMalku,
Please see my thread on the Aryan Invasion theory.
Tantra is a set of theistic philosophies that was practiced by the enemies of the Vedic Aryans when they entered the Indian subcontinent.
Much of what constitutes orthodox, Vedic Hinduism was formed as a reaction to Vamachara.
Please see my thread on the Aryan Invasion theory.
Tantra is a set of theistic philosophies that was practiced by the enemies of the Vedic Aryans when they entered the Indian subcontinent.
Much of what constitutes orthodox, Vedic Hinduism was formed as a reaction to Vamachara.
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Thank you TTCUSM
later: I read through the thread but didn't see any mention of vamachara?
Would elaborate on this a bit more please?
later: I read through the thread but didn't see any mention of vamachara?
Would elaborate on this a bit more please?
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Arav
Jain
Vamachara is the left-hand path of Tantra. Is that what you wanted to know?
EtuMalku
Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Thank you gopal, I am aware of that, but could you go into a little bit more? It seems it has very little in common with Western Left Hand Paths.
The thread doesn't mention vamachara explicitly.
However, there is some archaeological evidence that vamachara was the religion practiced by the enemies of the Vedic Aryans.
That's why I said "Much of what constitutes orthodox, Vedic Hinduism was formed as a reaction to Vamachara."
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
This is 100% speculation on your part. With no facts to back it up.
Tantrika can be traced back to the Vedas it. Both enjoyment and renunciation were sought in the ritualistic part of the Vedas (Karmakanda). Vamachara is a very small part of Tantra Practiced by a very small number of people. You love to make these wide derogatory comments about Tantra both on the boards and personal messages. Yet you never respond my comments. You quote from very early european translations.
If Adi Sankara taught Tantra then it's Vedic, Its that simple.
All puja rituals today come from Tantra. Tantric Fire rituals have Mantras from the Vedas. All of the facts I give you are both concrete and real. All of your argument is based some obscure speculation of some scholar that no one has heard of or has respect for.
If you say that Tantra is the religion of demons then you believe that many of the greatest saints of Hinduism in the modern times; Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurbindo and Maa Anandamayi all follow the religion demons. Even Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi favorite scripture was Tantric the Tripura Rahasya. There is just no basis for your beliefs.
Arav
Jain
Western left-hand paths are very much focused on not following what they call God or anything divine. Western Left-Hand paths tend to be things like Satanism and the such, as you know. But the left-hand path of eastern religions are just another way ot trying to reach God. There is a tantric sect called Aghori and they believe in Shiva but they also believe in drinking alcohal and eating human flesh. They do not say they dont like God, or they want to go agaisnt God, they just take a less conventional path.
So this is known as a left-hand path because they dont follow formal practices and some practice things that are known to be socially gross. But this is not ALL Tantra. There is Shakti Tantra, followers of Kali are well known. There are both Tantrics who dont practice such things like the aghoris, and others that do. Tantra is very wide and vast and to explain such a subject, well, I dont know if it can be done.
Arav
Jain
Thank you for posting this Wannabe Yogi, I thought the same thing.
Arav
Jain
In Advaita Vedanta, if you know yourself you know God, for there is no difference. I disagree with this, I believe in another philosophy. And yes there is a path that leads to seperation from Divinity, most of the world is following it, I call it Serving the Senses. That will lead you away from God and to a world of Illusion.
And all Hindu Paths dont necissarily lead to COMPLETE oneness with God. Gaudiya Vaishnavism believes that real liberation is eternal Prema, or ecstatic love for God. But we are still different, in a way, from God.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Gopal Dasa is right about our paths are differennt, Let me say that in Hinduism there are many paths. All of them at least from my perspective they lead to the TRUTH. Advieta Vedanta teaches the unity of all is in our Self. That God is in everyone and thing. It is our egos that stop us from experience the UNITY in Advaita or being lost in the love of Krishna for the Krishna devotee.
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What are you talking about?
I provided archaeological evidence from the sites of the Bactria and Margiana Archaeological Complex.
The reason my ideas sound like "100% speculation" is because the BMAC wasn't discovered until 1976. It isn't nearly as well known as Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro (which were discovered in the 1920s).
Yes, I am aware of that.
Yes, I am aware of that as well.
Very early European translations??
All of my sources refer to religious practices of the BMAC. Nobody knew it existed until 1976!
Adi Shankara lived over 2000 years after the Aryan Invasion.
By that time, Sanatana Dharma had absorbed a lot of non-Vedic elements.
Like I said previously, modern Sanatana Dharma incorporates numerous non-Vedic elements.
First of all, Asko Parpola is NOT an "obscure scholar that no one has heard of".
He is an Indologist who has done groundbreaking work on the Indus Valley Civilization.
He even won the 2009 Kalaignar M. Karunanidhi Classical Tamil Award!
First of all, I do NOT look down upon Tantra.
It contains some very respectable teachings, like respect for women and lower castes.
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Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Well then, I guess It was all a misunderstanding on my part. I think you could understand why. All the talk of Tantra coming from demons Along with your questions of human sacrifice.
I would also like to comment that in Northern California before the european conquest. That many cultures with vastly different languages and cultures lived right along side with each other. With only minimal amounts of war. I still dont see why the Europe-Asian model of conquest and destruction is projected on to all cultures at all times. Indian Subcontinent was seperated from all that. Since there is more then one model for history. Why war always is the default position of all cultures
Even though I am extremely tempted to respond to all of your arguments I will not and let dead dogs lie.
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