Vance and the childless cat ladies

[Saint Frankenstein]

It might be good to consider the part that economics play. Having a kid is expensive both monetarily, physically, mentally, emotionally, and takes a lot of time. In a country with expensive and sometimes inaccessible healthcare (even with insurance) where working a full time job doesn't guarantee financial stability, I can understand people choosing to not have a kid.

True, and I'm sure that's a factor, but poor folks still have kids.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thoughts?

As usual you speak not a shred of truth about America.

 

[Madsaac]

I mean...Vance is a very nice guy...and humble.
But he has a big flaw...I mean... we only know what his big flaw is.
He is not single and available (LOL)...
just kidding.

At first I thought he was blaming millennial women for being childless and with a house filled with cats.
I mean... if it deals with the USA...he has a point.
But not as for Europe. Women are childless in my country because of men... not because of volition.

He has a point in the United States, where toxic feminism has produced misandry and the tendency to mistrust men and relationship with men.

Thoughts?

Nah.

Mistrust can come from various areas, in Australia domestic violence has been a big talking point for the last few years because occurs too much. This might be where some of the mistrust comes from. And surely we are mature enough to know its only 'certain' males who are morons?

Intimate partner violence

Intimate partner violence page on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website

www.aihw.gov.au

Women are becoming more independent and don't need men as much, especially the violent ones

 

[Revoltingest]

Women are becoming more independent and don't need men as much, especially the violent ones

We peaceful men don't need violent men....or violent women.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nah.

Mistrust can come from various areas, in Australia domestic violence has been a big talking point for the last few years because occurs too much. This might be where some of the mistrust comes from. And surely we are mature enough to know its only 'certain' males who are morons?

Intimate partner violence

Intimate partner violence page on the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare website

www.aihw.gov.au

Women are becoming more independent and don't need men as much, especially the violent ones

Yeah...but the narrative changes.
Here: don't make children with that man. He will find a mistress and will dump you, and your child will grow up without a father.
There: don't make children with that man. He will stalk you and beat you up. And your child will grow up with traumas.

As you can see... the reasons are the exact opposite of one another. A fleeing husband, and a stalking one.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Thoughts?

Completely delusional, as usual. Both concerning the US as well as Europe.

Not much else to say really....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Any generalization is simplistic and wrong: that was my point.

And yet, your post contains nothing else..................

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, the state encourages marriage because it leads to children and population growth, which means a larger pool of workers to exploit and more soldiers to conscript into the military. Vance's position seems to be that unmarried people without children have no stake in the system and no reason to care about the country's future. I don't agree with that position myself, although that appears to be the reasoning behind his remark.

And I've seen this attitude pervade throughout society, where unmarried men might be passed over for promotion or otherwise viewed as "suspect" in many people's eyes. I think that attitude has probably softened in more recent decades, though it still exists. It's a liability when running for public office, since the voters insist on people with spouses and families. Somehow, it seems to be a sign of emotional stability and makes voters trust them more.

As an employer, I actually prefer single childless people. They tend to be a lot more invested in their job. They will never have to leave early to go pick kids up. They will never have to stay home to take care of a sick kid. They will never ask for 4 weeks of summer leave to spend time with their families.
In one case, we had a guy who simply didn't take leave at all. We actually had to force him because by law he was required to take time off.

As a human though, I don't think that's a very fulfilling life to live. But it's not my job to judge. Everybody makes his / her own life's choices.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

He probably forgets that he is rich and can afford to raise children.
With the inflation nobody can afford to raise a child and having a cat is 10 times cheaper.

"nobody"?

I have 2 kids. I don't have any problem raising them. Inflation or not.
While many people complain and whine, most of them have no problem living either.
They might have to tighten their belt a bit and NOT go out twice a week or go to a 3 star hotel in Italy instead of a 5-star hotel in Greece, sure.
But let's not pretend as if middle class people are suddenly ending up living on the streets en masse.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It also has to do with the fact that the West, when it comes to the younger generations, is starting to go the way of the South Korean work environment - where most of your time is spent working (or in school or both), for both sexes. At the same time, in-person socializing has collapsed. So how you can expect them to form relationships when they don't even socialize or have the time to form a relationship? Many young people don't even know how to. Gen Z is a very sexless generation, according to polls. They replaced relationships and sex with porn and masturbation.

I'ld dare say that more time and school or work actually opens UP your network of meeting new people. Many people I know met their wives / husbands in school, or through mutual friends from school.

The collapse of "in-person socializing" is indeed a big problem, but this has nothing to do with school or work and everything with that dreadful touch devices that everybody keeps staring at.

Back in the 90s when we were taking the bus to school, everybody was talking at the bus-stop and while on the ride. Now, nobody talks and everybody is acting like a zombie and staring at their phones, taking selfies or whatever other shallow nonsense. Hypno Toad style.

Spending much time at school / work imo is not an obstacle for socializing. It in fact offers extra opportunity for it. For many people, it's actually one of the last opportunities they have to really meet new people.

 

[Madsaac]

We peaceful men don't need violent men....or violent women.

True but men are more violent then women

 

[Madsaac]

Yeah...but the narrative changes.
Here: don't make children with that man. He will find a mistress and will dump you, and your child will grow up without a father.
There: don't make children with that man. He will stalk you and bet you up. And your child will grow up with traumas.

As you can see... the reasons are the exact opposite of one another. A fleeing husband, and a stalking one.

Yeah, different narratives but both terrible?

At the end of the day women need empowering.

He has a point in the United States, where toxic feminism has produced misandry and the tendency to mistrust men and relationship with men.

So you honestly think, like Vance that feminism would cause more mistrust in men then DV and other forms of disrespect towards women?

Really?

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, different narratives but both terrible?

Kinda.
The American one is unrealistic overgeneralization.
The European one is a non-incorrect generalization.

At the end of the day women need empowering.

Indeed.

So you honestly think, like Vance that feminism would cause more mistrust in men then DV and other forms of disrespect towards women?

Really?

What's DV?

 

[Madsaac]

What's DV?

Domestic Violence

 

[Estro Felino]

Domestic Violence

Do you know why our PM is unmarried?
There you go: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/euro...er-split-sexist-comments-intl-scli/index.html

 

[Revoltingest]

True but men are more violent then women

A lower frequency doesn't mean we
should ignore violence by women.
Especially towards children.

 

[Alien826]

Your post was thoughtful, so it's almost like the above snuck in the back door and tried to blend in with the rest.

As a woman, I could say the same though, as you said.

Well noticed. First, I appreciate the "thoughtful" comment. Quite honestly I was expecting a lot more "kick back", perhaps I managed to defuse it in advance, as I intended.

I don't retract "ordered around" though, and I'll explain why. I was trying describe how a lot of men feel. That is not necessarily factually based, by which I mean that I don't think the vast majority of married men are ordered around by their wives. Nevertheless, the trope of the "bossy wife" is well established in both our culture and literature. It must have some reality. I use jokes as a measure of cultural reality. If a joke resonates with a certain demographic, it means that those people relate to the perceived reality that the joke depicts, and this one works.

Equally, I was not trying to present both sides of the matter. Far be it from me, a mere male, to explain how women feel (is that "mansplaining"?). You might like to do so, giving a woman's feelings about the change in marriage that I described? I would find that very interesting.

 

[anna.]

Well noticed. First, I appreciate the "thoughtful" comment. Quite honestly I was expecting a lot more "kick back", perhaps I managed to defuse it in advance, as I intended.

You could still get kickback from someone else who hasn't seen your post yet, but they also might not notice you were trying to be careful in expressing your thoughts, and that should count for something.

I don't retract "ordered around" though, and I'll explain why. I was trying describe how a lot of men feel. That is not necessarily factually based, by which I mean that I don't think the vast majority of married men are ordered around by their wives. Nevertheless, the trope of the "bossy wife" is well established in both our culture and literature. It must have some reality. I use jokes as a measure of cultural reality. If a joke resonates with a certain demographic, it means that those people relate to the perceived reality that the joke depicts, and this one works.

Equally, I was not trying to present both sides of the matter. Far be it from me, a mere male, to explain how women feel (is that "mansplaining"?). You might like to do so, giving a woman's feelings about the change in marriage that I described? I would find that very interesting.

The trope of a bossy wife can be seen in both a humorous and in a somber light. Even women joke about it (you might recall in A Big Fat Greek Wedding how one of the women explained it - paraphrased, the man is the head of the house and the woman is the neck that turns the head). To a certain extent this is quite true, but a lot of men appreciate that women take care of things they don't have to think about; they're just somehow magically done (and men can often have no awareness of how much work actually goes into that magic). So there's the joke, and then the somber truth that for many women, when men "order them around" there's all too often an element of abuse to it. Emotional, mental, physical, or all of those things. This is where a huge difference comes in. Society and culture have historically looked the other way. I'm sure you know all this so no need to go into it in detail. It's a fact.

As for the change in marriage: there's a lot of good, and some not so good, but overall I wouldn't go back and I'm thankful for the women who worked to give me the freedom I have today. The freedom to vote, to have a checking account, credit cards, a mortgage in my name without needing permission from a husband. That's first wave feminism, and then there were more waves to follow. I'm different than a lot of women my age, I worked until I had my first child and then I was a stay-at-home mom until they were all in school. Even then, I got a job that allowed me to be the one to pick them up after school and be home to get them to sports, dentist and doctor appointments, and make dinner while they played outside or did homework or hung out in the kitchen talking about stuff. These were the best years of my life, and while having children is the hardest job I ever had (and it's never over, no matter how old they are you still worry and sometimes - or often - help), it's also the best, most rewarding, most fulfilling job I could ever hope to have have. No regrets. I don't give out much more information about my kids other than I have them, because I'm protective of their privacy. But I do feel badly for latchkey kids, for babies who are in daycare from 6 weeks on. I wish there was a better way for our society to support young mothers in the early years. There's something to be said for Sweden (perhaps all of Scandinavia) that allows for 16 months of maternal leave at 80% pay.

I don't subscribe to some of third and fourth wave feminism. I don't hate men, I don't denigrate them, I understand and appreciate their worth, but I know many women who've said that after (or if) they were widowed or divorced they would never marry again. Statistics bear that out, so it's not just anecdotal. And I understand them and I agree with them.

Anyway. That's just me thinking off the top of my head, hope it gives you an idea of where I'm coming from.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't retract "ordered around" though, and I'll explain why. I was trying describe how a lot of men feel. That is not necessarily factually based, by which I mean that I don't think the vast majority of married men are ordered around by their wives. Nevertheless, the trope of the "bossy wife" is well established in both our culture and literature.

That's for sure...
I mean... the alpha female is a reality in the US. No offense, of course. But it's because men are too desperate for their attention.

The so called childless cat ladies are called the Bridgets Jones (at least in my country)...and they are just victims of men's selfishness.

There needs to be some middle way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The collapse of "in-person socializing" is indeed a big problem, but this has nothing to do with school or work and everything with that dreadful touch devices that everybody keeps staring at.

As someone with Autism, from my perspective it appears growing up a native of the internet and digital worlds makes socializing harder than having autism. It's gotten so bad I've met those of the younger crowds who don't know how to make or find friends after school. It's like they forgot there are real life groups to join along with work being a place people have traditionally made friends at.
They also seem to think penpals (that's what internet friends are) are an adequate substitute for real life, face to face relationships. A few of my nieces amd nephews have even tried long distance dating over the internet just to find out their parents, aunts and uncle are right saying those don't work and cannot ever work because you lack the necessary face to face element of human socialization. And I see this everywhere and often read it psych stuff that people are having to be told penpals do not give us many of the things we need.
I'm glad I didn't grow up with it and never bothered to get the Matrix ports installed.