Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

[blü 2]

It's hard to believe that the big bang was a chance event

If the Big Bang hadn't happened, you wouldn't be here to say that ─ but don't assume that means the universe was created so you could say that.

and that all life on this planet developed by chance.

There's a difference between evolution and simple chance. Think of the automatic effectiveness of natural selection, for instance.

Some experts have found the DNA code to be so complex that it could've only been designed by an intelligent Creator. https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/lifes-ultimate-question-does-god-exist/the-tiny-miracle-thats-toppling.

There's also a big difference between expertise in the bible and expertise in science.

 

[oldbadger]

They're a phenomenon down at the quantum energy-of-the-vacuum level, and they complete the cycle of forming and mutually annihilating under the Planck time. There is no way of predicting an individual event, even in principle; the fluctuations of energy at that level occur spontaneously.

Energy...... unpredictable spontaneity.......... Wonderful.

Ya got me there. Googling has turned up nothing; can you give me a link?

Or are you by chance thinking of the Great Attractor, a large mass causing deviations in the paths of galaxies, which was a mystery until we recently worked out how to look through the Milky Way galaxy and out the other side ─ there we found the Great Attractor was a very big but not very unusual formation.

Ah My notes are filled on another laptop, and indeed, new info may have been discovered to show that the movements and causes were contained within our Universe. I will look, later today.

But regardless of that, I doubt that our Universe is all, it may be as insignificant as a neutron is in our world.

There you go again, conflating 'reason' and 'cause'. The universe may have had a cause, or it may have been causeless in the classical sense, but we have not the slightest evidence to suggest it was formed to satisfy an intention, a reason in that sense.

Oh, you might be confusing Deism with Theism. I am a Deist and have no reason (cause?) to need to show an intending, reasoning Great Being. I simply believe that you and I are a part of it all, a part of the Deity. For me that does make a great difference to the way that I think and see the world around.
But that Deity is no more aware of or interested about me than you are about one of the hairs on your right forefinger, even though that hair is a definite part of you.

There may be more. There may not be more. We don't know, and we don't have useful evidence that might test hypotheses (which presently are from speculative mathematical models, the people who brought you branes, for instance).

Ok, but in a chaotic existence of spontaneous forming and annihilating energy, with (so far) no certain end discovered, it's not unreasonable for me to make guesses such as 'our universe is very small'.

 

[missmay]

It's not much of a point considering he places his trust in fallible humans on a daily basis unless he lives in complete & utter isolation, in total self-sufficiency.

Besides, the same can be said of theologians - the fact you're advocating a personal relationship with the Great Maker implies there will be as many differing and conflicting opinions & beliefs as there are people to have them. So ultimately your position is self-defeating.




I see what you mean; I would trust The Great Earth Mother's guidance if I had the time to stop, centre myself and actually listen to Her.




If a person views willingness to admit a mistake and change one's mind based on new information as a flaw then I'd be less inclined to trust that person, frankly.

Viewing the ability to change one's mind based on new information as a weakness or a bad thing is a sign of anti-intellectualism.

I agree. Like I said, it's commendable if someone can admit they were wrong, it's not always easy to do. What I'm saying though is that we are taught from our society that we must believe scientific "fact" as the absolute truth and if we don't (because we know that scientists have been wrong and will continue to be wrong at times) we are viewed as un intelligent by basing our beliefs on mere emotionalism/neediness/subjectivity which is most times not really the case. If I can "see" evidence with different aspects of my brain that doesn't necessarily involve science, and I trust in those processes of my brain and experiences, why would I change my perceptions of truth if I know that scientific so called "facts" about something as complicated as the earth coming into existence can change into non facts. Again, I appreciate the integrity/honesty of a scientist admitting they were wrong, but I'm not going to base something as precious as my life, my soul, a relationship with the creator of the universe who loves me, and eternal life with great things to come on what some scientists say is fact (especially when there's varying opinions between them).

Yes, humans are infallible and that includes theologians, pastors, etc too, But that's why Christians look to God as the only one they can trust completely. I can can trust people to degrees, but not 100% . I know people make mistakes, have a dual nature (this includes all Christians as well), and are not anywhere near as intelligent and powerful as the Creator. And your absolutely right that even people who believe in a god, and even the Christian God will have varying opinions re: aspects of their beliefs. BUT...those things are to be expected! Because like you said, humans are infallable. But God isnt. And so although it makes for an interesting sometimes rewarding, sometimes frustrating journey, that should never be an argument that a creator of this universe cannot exist .

 

[missmay]

I find such a notion laughably absurd. To think we are so special that god made us just like him. If there is a god, why should this entity even be limited to just one form?

Then why is it everytime we say "this is what makes us different," we find out it's something that actually makes us the same?

It's a common trait of social animals. And I never mentioned this "replacement" argument you presented.

Saying we not made like god, and that we are like other animals, that's not excluding the value of animals. I'm not even much for using phrases of "humans and animals" because non-human animals share this world with us, we are animals, and all life is connected. This hierarchy that puts humans above other animals, it too is anthropocentric.

No, it takes believing a book that tries to convince you that you are special in ways you are not. If we were so unique and special, I doubt the internal anatomy of a pig would look nearly identical to our own, and we probably couldn't successfully transplant some pig and horse organs into us. It's also extremely unlikely that if we were special and made in the image of god while everything else was made, we wouldn't share such close genetic resemblance with chimps and bonobos, or have the similarities we do with other animals such as cats and dogs.
Humility just does not include saying "we are special" when this claim just doesn't seem very likely. Unlike the claims of the Disney song, we are not the only animal who can think, reason, and read. I also don't buy into the idea that humans are the only animals who know we must one day die.

 

[blü 2]

I will look, later today.

Interested to know what you find, either way.

it's not unreasonable for me to make guesses such as 'our universe is very small'.

I'm not at all sure what measure would tell me whether our universe is very small, small, medium, large or extra large. It's been expanding for nearly 14 bn years so it's noticeably bigger'n it was, but whether that's bigdick or littledick or goldilocks I can't say.

 

[missmay]

@ Shadow wolf:

Why would God "limit" himself to one form? I guess because he chose to . Why would that make him less of a Creator? Maybe he's confident enough in who he is? I'm not really sure what the meaning is behind that question.

Humility can be a genuine quality if we don't take credit for our "specialness". That is Gods doing. I believe all of his creation is extremely special to him. Why would he bother making it in the first place if it wasn't? When I said that animals are not the same as humans, I was emphasizing that there are the obvious differences between us , not that we don't have similarities. I agree with you..animals have intelligence, the ability to reason, and even have a sense of humour! I witness how my cat loves and relates to me while Im playing my musical instrument and I know without a doubt that it not only relaxes or stimulates her, but that she is moved emotionally by music, experiences joy from it and I can even tell what her favorite songs are! I believe very much that animals, humans and nature are interconnected, and I believe that is the way the Creator has designed it to be. I also believe like you that animals can know they will die at some point. I also believe that they know that this world falls short and believe they have a type of knowledge of a better life after death. But that doesn't mean there aren't or shouldn't be hierarchies set in place in this world. Without certain hierarchies there would be chaos.. They're not bad, unless the people running them are bad..its just the natural order of things. This doesn't denote from anyone's specialness at all. Unfortunately, the word hierarchy gets a bad rap because of the falleness of humans who have often turned what was meant to be good into something bad. The bible talking about God giving humans dominon over animals was never meant to be disrespectful, It was about responsibility, even love.
I don't see how God making humans in his likeness lessens the awesomeness of animals. We have different roles to play, and like I said in my earlier post, ties in with with what's to come in this next life. Yes, some animals have certain physical characteristics that look similar to us, but they are lightyears away from being human beings. But again, this doesnt take away from their uniqueness or role in the earth/messianic kingdom or our ability to relate to them .According to scripture, in the messianic kingdom, animals won't eat nor harm animals nor humans. They will have a very special identity and existence of their own and not only will they give us even more joy than they do now, but will experience much greater joy and without suffering.

Even in the time of animal sacrifice, the blade used had to be a certain type/width so as to cause the quickest death with the least amount of suffering. Never when the Bible talked about burnt offerings were animals burned alive, that was after they had already been sacrificed.
The scriptures say that if an animal was sacrificed outside of the temple (and not in the ordained way), it was considered "murder" to that animal. If an animal was killed for meat, no one was allowed to drink any of the blood and the blood had to be drained and buried in the dirt. The reason? The scripture said the animals blood was considered it's "Lifeforce", and that the Lifeforce of an animal was sacred in God's eyes.
Another passage says "A righteous man cares for the needs/wellbeing of his animal(s),"
and even though work was forbidden on the Sabbath, it was considered unrighteousness to not rescue an "ox if it fell into a ditch", or to not protect, water or feed your animal on the Sabbath although it was still a form of work.
More interesting, when King David's advisor told David that a rich man had stolen a poor man's only lamb whom the poor man "treated like his daughter and let her drink from his own cup", to kill for a meal even though this rich man had many lambs of his own, David was so furious that he was going to have this man put to death. We know this turned out not to be a true story in this case and that it was in relation to Bathsheba, but David didn't know this at first. David, as a former shepherd, had most likely experienced the protective bond he had for his flock, but he probably also had experienced the beautiful God given bond with an animal that this poor man and his only lamb shared, (that he treated like his own child even though he had human children as well). This was the real reason for Davids passion and outrage.
Unfortunately American Christian culture doesn't do a great job of teaching about these valuable scriptures, which not only takes away from the beauty and depth of who God is, but enables the mentality that animals don't matter much to God therefore we as humans get to treat them however we see fit.
This isnt God's fault, it's the condition of the inner man.

I love the way my cat looks up at me at times when she feels special, because she is at that moment sensing my love for her. I imagine God might feel the same way when we sense his love for us.

 

[DavidFirth]

What does that mean?

That it makes sense to say 'That the sun rises in the east is a well-known Jesus'?

Explain yourself.

John 14

Read the entire chapter and Jesus explains Himself.

 

[missmay]

Energy...... unpredictable spontaneity.......... Wonderful.


Ah My notes are filled on another laptop, and indeed, new info may have been discovered to show that the movements and causes were contained within our Universe. I will look, later today.

But regardless of that, I doubt that our Universe is all, it may be as insignificant as a neutron is in our world.


Oh, you might be confusing Deism with Theism. I am a Deist and have no reason (cause?) to need to show an intending, reasoning Great Being. I simply believe that you and I are a part of it all, a part of the Deity. For me that does make a great difference to the way that I think and see the world around.
But that Deity is no more aware of or interested about me than you are about one of the hairs on your right forefinger, even though that hair is a definite part of you.


Ok, but in a chaotic existence of spontaneous forming and annihilating energy, with (so far) no certain end discovered, it's not unreasonable for me to make guesses such as 'our universe is very small'.

Excuse me for butting in here, but if you feel it's important that you are simply a "part of it all", but that what or who you are a part of doesn't give a rats @$#! about you, what's the importance of you being a part of anything?

 

[Muffled]

I believe it is possible that God has many masterpieces since He is the Master.

 

[Muffled]

I'd say it is a (weak) argument against a personal God.

I believe it is a non-sequitur.

 

[Muffled]

I see the vastness of space as irrelevant to the question of deities' existence.

I believe the more complex the universe the more it points to a creator.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see how God making humans in his likeness lessens the awesomeness of animals.

It gives justification for treating other animals like crap, thinking they are beneath us and not deserving, and leading to their tragic and needless deaths in things such as religious sacrifices.

Humility can be a genuine quality if we don't take credit for our "specialness".

Humility does not include saying your are special. Humility isn't something I view as a virtue, nor do I try to be humble, but before the vastness of the Cosmos, I am forced to acknowledge and accept how utterly tine and insignificant we really are.

Why would he bother making it in the first place if it wasn't?

I've made quite a few things that weren't that important or special to me.

This isnt God's fault, it's the condition of the inner man.

If we were made in god's image and likeness, it thus follows it's not just the inner condition of humanity, but the inner condition of god.

 

[oldbadger]

Excuse me for butting in here, but if you feel it's important that you are simply a "part of it all", but that what or who you are a part of doesn't give a rats @$#! about you, what's the importance of you being a part of anything?

There! Now you can perceive just how minutely small I am, no more important than the ducks in our garden or the little daxie in my avatar pic!
The thing is, I never did believe that I could go shopping for the ideal God, devoted to my existence in some heavenly plane. It always seemed such an arrogant and conceited mindset to me.
But if you believe that God is intimately involved in your welbeing and future then that is fine by me. No Probs.

 

[missmay]

There! Now you can perceive just how minutely small I am, no more important than the ducks in our garden or the little daxie in my avatar pic!
The thing is, I never did believe that I could go shopping for the ideal God, devoted to my existence in some heavenly plane. It always seemed such an arrogant and conceited mindset to me.
But if you believe that God is intimately involved in your welbeing and future then that is fine by me. No Probs.

Thank you, but God kinda shopped for me when I really didn't want to be wrapped up in a nice pretty package.Haha.

Why would you think it would be arrogant to have a good thing?

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe the more complex the universe the more it points to a creator.

I say a more complex universe points towards the
hope that it continues to become ever more complex.

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you, but God kinda shopped for me when I really didn't want to be wrapped up in a nice pretty package.Haha.

Why would you think it would be arrogant to have a good thing?

Not individuals but masses of humans as a whole religion.
The idea that we are special, when we aren't..... you know?

 

[missmay]

It gives justification for treating other animals like crap, thinking they are beneath us and not deserving, and leading to their tragic and needless deaths in things such as religious sacrifices.

Humility does not include saying your are special. Humility isn't something I view as a virtue, nor do I try to be humble, but before the vastness of the Cosmos, I am forced to acknowledge and accept how utterly tine and insignificant we really are.

I've made quite a few things that weren't that important or special to me.

If we were made in god's image and likeness, it thus follows it's not just the inner condition of humanity, but the inner condition of god.

Wow, you didn't hear a thing I said, did you? I tried with good intentions anyway.

 

[missmay]

Not individuals but masses of humans as a whole religion.
The idea that we are special, when we aren't..... you know?

But what if we are special as the human race and God wants good things for us? It starts with individuals making decisions about what they think is truth ..it doesn't matter whether there are masses of them or not. Its not a members only club..anyone can join.

By the way, I can't tell if your emoticon is 1)sweet goofy and friendly , 2) mocking me /making faces at me, or 3) trying to pick up on me.

 

[oldbadger]

But what if we are special as the human race and God wants good things for us? It starts with individuals making decisions about what they think is truth ..it doesn't matter whether there are masses of them or not. Its not a members only club..anyone can join.

I forget how many billions of galaxies there are, or how many billions of star systems in each, but ifou do the maths then the answer shows just how pitiably unimportant we are.

And yet, no part of me matter or energy, can ever be destroed, it can only be changed.

I was dead for countless billions of years, and yet at this time I write a post to you. Unbelievable privilege for me.

 

[Polymath257]

I believe the more complex the universe the more it points to a creator.

Why would you believe that? Feedback loops often produce high complexity.