Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

[Skwim]

So you dismiss the theory of the multiverse including its potential testability. It is a controversial idea, to be sure, but some argue that it's testable to some degree: How Do You Test The Multiverse? With Bubbles

No. As is said in the video, in the beginning there was accelerated expansion in early the universe in which its substance expanded, which has a constant energy everywhere, and formed "bubbles" that grow, As they grow these bubbles were ripped apart from each other by the expansion of space, and that somewhere among those bubbles is our universe. So, there is nothing "beyond" the universe that was created in the BB, only that our particular universe is one of many divisions of it. I guess the problem is one of semantics over the word "universe." In the video he uses the word to denote both the universe as it was born of the BB, and then uses it for our particular universe---hardly the best way to explain it. So while I agree that in this particular multiverse scenario there is something beyond our universe, science has no evidence to work with that points to it. It's strictly a hypothesis, and science has no reason to believe it has any credibility beyond that.

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[robocop (actually)]

The thread title is exactly correct. The vastness of space does suggest there is no almighty creator.

However in one location, as you keep spreading out, you can find higher powers.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is a good argument against the Biblical God of the Old and New Testament. It takes a selective reading and gerrymandering the text to make Biblical view of the nature of our physical existence remotely relevant to the world past the 12th-16th century.

That is a timely comment. I can see how it does not cooperate with modern readers who are fans of The Genesis Flood (by H. Morris), but that seem to be not the biblical 'God' necessarily. I am looking into these things, and I have a few books here on the subject that I am currently perusing. God is more important than the question of where the physical world comes from and not just a character who shows up in nudist gardens. God performs both good an evil from a human perspective, because there is obviously evil in the world. The subject which really matters is why is there evil and good, and does this mean that there are multiple gods and a chaotic and meaningless morality? No, it does not mean this. There is still a single world, a single underlying law by which things operate, not a chaotic world in which there is no meaning -- however we cannot be inactive. What I am saying here or trying to say is that the story of creation is about this subject -- about the nature of God and the interplay of good and evil, about the obvious fact that bad things happen to good people. This is what Christianity could benefit from discussing....again like it once did and still does in places; but it seems that some people get stuck trying to defend God's existence and proving it as if that were somehow a meaningful effort. So, if anything the OP's argument is good for Christianity.

 

[Milton Platt]

The thread title is exactly correct. The vastness of space does suggest there is no almighty creator.

However in one location, as you keep spreading out, you can find higher powers.

What are "higher powers"?

 

[George-ananda]

It was taught for a long time (and sometimes today still) that everything was created for the benefit of humans.

Sure, people back then had no clue abut the universe's size. But the OP does not say he is restricting himself to the God of ancient biblical texts. The OP plays the old trick of using narrow biblical fundamentalism to define God.

 

[suncowiam]

The number of transistors in a Core i7 (Quad) 731,000,000 Intel, How many cpu's are in today's computer's, how much more electronics, how much data and yet when something goes wrong don't we try to save it. Isn't the computer important to the average person. Haven't we created programs to help protect the data and keep the computer running efficiently. Scientists are saying we can do this with a computer but God can't do this with a universe. I guess if they believe that than they wouldn't believe in God.

You didn't read the OP.

 

[Skwim]

it wouldn't be a creator God in the traditional sense. but an intelligent creative natural force isn't ruled out in my eyes.

my question is what lies beyond space?, space that is expanding, must have some kind of room to grow into.
it must be infinite and of no end.

do you think space is uniformally the same everywhere in the infinite?

there must be other realities out there.

Right now I side with those who feel there are limits to the universe defined by its expansion, and that in its own way, uniform; comprised of galaxies and supergalactic assemblies of galaxies spread out in a "bubble/web like" configuration. . . . .

As for what's beyond space, cosmologists say there's no such thing.
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[TrueBeliever37]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

It proves just the opposite to me. He is an awesome God - the Almighty God, with power you can't even begin to comprehend.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

Sagan used this argument as a case against a personal god I believe. I view the universe, in some sense as a "god" (though obviously not in the religious sense) due to its incredible vastness, complexity, and mystery. It's just childish to believe that there is some anthropomorphic magic man hiding behind it and pulling the strings.

 

[Profound Realization]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

A few things come to mind.

First, 99.9999999% of human beings do not independently observe/see this universe.

Second, I highly doubt that the special and priveledged class in power can see as far as claimed. Can use science to question this science.

Third, perhaps it is that large and the cosmos is the brain/mind of "God." How would you know?

Fourth, perhaps every living thing has and is creating their own galaxy. How would you know?

Fifth, the alleged findings of the privileged small class in power do not prove or disprove "God."

Sixth, while I respect freedom to have your needy expectations of beliefs... others are free to have beliefs of equal value, ranging in degree of expectations and neediness.

 

[Milton Platt]

Sure, people back then had no clue abut the universe's size. But the OP does not say he is restricting himself to the God of ancient biblical texts. The OP plays the old trick of using narrow biblical fundamentalism to define God.

Yes, he was specifically addressing the Christian version of a god, as I was.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So a vast, almost unlimited universe suggests there is no God. Would the existence of a God be more likely if the universe was much smaller? I fail to see any connection. In fact, the larger the universe suggests a more powerful God was needed to create it.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What are "higher powers"?

Simple. If we can find ourselves in a big area we can expect to find others in other big areas, evolution or not. Some would be more powerful than us, some less. Aliens. Whether they have visited or created us is a big discussion. See maybe the Aliens forum which I have gotten quite a conversation going before in.

But please let me repeat. The thread title is exactly correct. The vastness of space does suggest there is no almighty creator. Omnipresence and Omni-understanding would lead to completion, death with nothing else to do. Trying to get that way could cause a huge miscarriage of a humanity galaxies wide or a virus spreading out from there to threaten the Universe further.

 

[bobhikes]

You didn't read the OP.

Sure I did
The computer represents the universe
Memory, Soder, Transistors could represent humans
The human that uses it is god.
The human does things to take care of the memory, transistors and maybe even solders the smaller items. The human creates programs that make the memory and transistors work efficiently. The humans upgrades components to make it better.

Just because the universe is so complicated and vast does not eliminate a possibility of a caring God. It kinda explains why God's time table doesn't equate with ours. Humans don't have to check the memory or upgrade the computer all the time only when needed.

 

[robocop (actually)]

This is interesting too:

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2017/01/the-conscious-universe-a-radical-theory-the-universe-exists-because-we-are-here-view-video.html

 

[Milton Platt]

Simple. If we can find ourselves in a big area we can expect to find others in other big areas, evolution or not. Some would be more powerful than us, some less. Aliens. Whether they have visited or created us is a big discussion. See maybe the Aliens forum which I have gotten quite a conversation going before in.

But please let me repeat. The thread title is exactly correct. The vastness of space does suggest there is no almighty creator. Omnipresence and Omni-understanding would lead to completion, death with nothing else to do. Trying to get that way could cause a huge miscarriage of a humanity galaxies wide or a virus spreading out from there to threaten the Universe further.

Okay. thanks for clarification. That term is kinda "squishy". I would not personally consider an alien race a "higher power" but they might be more intelligent, or more technically advanced but less intelligent (because the had more time to work it out), or stronger, or more powerful, or some combination. Also, we could presently be the "highest power" in the universe.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Okay. thanks for clarification. That term is kinda "squishy". I would not personally consider an alien race a "higher power" but they might be more intelligent, or more technically advanced but less intelligent (because the had more time to work it out), or stronger, or more powerful, or some combination. Also, we could presently be the "highest power" in the universe.

If you include statistics, there will always be a "higher power" at least far enough away.

 

[Milton Platt]

If you include statistics, there will always be a "higher power" at least far enough away.

I do not see how statistics could be applied. We do not have enough information about the visible part of the universe, much less the rest of it, to make sound calculations.

 

[shunyadragon]

That is a timely comment. I can see how it does not cooperate with modern readers who are fans of The Genesis Flood (by H. Morris), but that seem to be not the biblical 'God' necessarily. I am looking into these things, and I have a few books here on the subject that I am currently perusing. God is more important than the question of where the physical world comes from and not just a character who shows up in nudist gardens. God performs both good an evil from a human perspective, because there is obviously evil in the world. The subject which really matters is why is there evil and good, and does this mean that there are multiple gods and a chaotic and meaningless morality? No, it does not mean this. There is still a single world, a single underlying law by which things operate, not a chaotic world in which there is no meaning -- however we cannot be inactive. What I am saying here or trying to say is that the story of creation is about this subject -- about the nature of God and the interplay of good and evil, about the obvious fact that bad things happen to good people. This is what Christianity could benefit from discussing....again like it once did and still does in places; but it seems that some people get stuck trying to defend God's existence and proving it as if that were somehow a meaningful effort. So, if anything the OP's argument is good for Christianity.

I believe in God, but an apophatic God of the Baha'i Faith not manifest physically in our physical universe. There is no interplay of good and evil. There is only our physical existence as God Created. Actually in the Baha'i Faith our physical existence exists eternally with God as the attributes of God's Creation. This thread does not address the Baha'i view of God.

The problem that is not good news for Christianity. which is based fundamentally on an ancient world view of God.

 

[shunyadragon]

If you include statistics, there will always be a "higher power" at least far enough away.

Statistics are a human created descriptive convention like all math. It only applies to probabilities from the human perspective.