Vastness of Space Suggests There Is No Almighty Creator

[Kuzcotopia]

A few things come to mind.
Second, I highly doubt that the special and priveledged class in power can see as far as claimed. Can use science to question this science.

Fifth, the alleged findings of the privileged small class in power do not prove or disprove "God."

In your second and fifth points you refer to a special, small, privledged class. What are you talking about?

 

[Profound Realization]

In your second and fifth points you refer to a special, small, privledged class. What are you talking about?

Those having the extraordinarily rare opportunity, and advantage to potentially observe things that 99.999999% of people cannot independently.

 

[oldbadger]

The Big Bang is an extremely firm idea, and because they have no reason to believe there's any such of a thing as "beyond the universe," they have no ideas about it..

I think you've got that wrong.

Atronomers, physicists, mathematicians are mostly in polite contention over the initiation of all. The list of proposed 'initiations' includes hald a dozen possibilities, but the one that interests me is that astronomers have noticed that some galaxies on the perimeters of our Universe are not moving in their expected paths, which suggests that there are great bodies beyond our Universe.

Whatever caused our Universe and howver it got initiated there has to be a reason for it all. I exp[ect that mlost scientists would agree that since there is a reason for everything else.

There you go....... The Reason for All.... = A Deity

 

[Grandliseur]

Or better yet, why not just rephrase it.

Well, that is what I wanted perhaps. Nice to have an editor.

Got a pretty good idea it would never through.

It's kind of hard to communicate when both of us are deaf to each others arguments.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As Everitt puts it.

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true

It is mans finite mind that has restricted creation to just our one known Universe. God is outside all of creation.

There are ancient traditions that show Faith in God had comtemplated this long ago.

"....Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils...."

Baha'u'llah has said;

"Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute."

"Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures."

Also these creatures are also under the care and guidance of God;

"O people! I swear by the one true God! ... Through His potency the Trees of Divine Revelation have yielded their fruits, every one of which hath been sent down in the form of a Prophet, bearing a Message to God's creatures in each of the worlds whose number God, alone, in His all-encompassing Knowledge, can reckon."

Science has a lot to discover as yet;

"As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."

Regards Tony

 

[atanu]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

As per Vedanta, Brahman ( some equate Brahman with impersonal God and some with personal God), means that which grows. The inherent nature of Brahman is unborn-unbound consciousness. So, wherever we put our attention that grows and grows.

I see no contradiction in what scriptures teach and how big the space is. I see validation.

 

[shunyadragon]

This seems like a straw argument, because your view of Christianity is unique and of a fixed type that is convenient only to you. On on hand you say the thread doesn't apply to Bahai but mistakenly insist it necessarily criticizes Christianity when actually it criticizes creationism only.

Necessarily?!?! This is a limit you are putting on the thread, and not that of the thread author.

First there is nothing in the topic of the thread that limits problem of the existence of God to (fundamentalist) creationism only. The problems put forward center on the Biblical view of God and nature and relationship with existence. You are sidestepping the actual specific foundation Biblical worldview of God that the original authors, and Church Fathers believed. The Bible and the Church Fathers describe Aristotle's view of our physical existence.

The Baha'i scripture puts no such limits on the nature of God and our physical existence that the author of the thread criticizes. @Tony Bristow-Stagg presented the Baha'i view in scripture well.

I am arguing for a Baha'i belief in God.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Those having the extraordinarily rare opportunity, and advantage to potentially observe things that 99.999999% of people cannot independently.

I'm sorry to be a pest, but I really don't understand who you're referring to here. Are you taking about prophets, Mt. Everest climbers, gurus, mars colonists, proctologists . . . ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Necessarily?!?! This is a limit you are putting on the thread, and not that of the thread author.

First there is nothing in the topic of the thread that limits problem of the existence of God to (fundamentalist) creationism only. The problems put forward center on the Biblical view of God and nature and relationship with existence. You are sidestepping the actual specific foundation Biblical worldview of God that the original authors, and Church Fathers believed. The Bible and the Church Fathers describe Aristotle's view of our physical existence.

The Bah'i scripture puts no such limits on the nature of God and our physical existence that the author of the thread criticizes. @Tony Bristow-Stagg presented the Baha'i view in scripture well.

So this is the Biblical worldview of God of the original authors and Church fathers in the opinion of Bahai's in general? So they feel that the original authors did not understand the apophatic? Perhaps it is easy to impose views on others that they are not here to defend against, but I am here. I am not accepting this tale, however that is all I need to say.

 

[shunyadragon]

So this is the Biblical worldview of God of the original authors and Church fathers in the opinion of Bahai's in general? So they feel that the original authors did not understand the apophatic? Perhaps it is easy to impose views on others that they are not here to defend against, but I am here. I am not accepting this tale, however that is all I need to say.

I am presenting my view in the discussion, and not imposing my view on any one. This is a rude uncalled for assumption and does not reflect the discussion. To disagree and presents ones view is NOT imposing ones view on others. I anything this is the part of the nature of Christianity throughout history.

Actually no, it is not necessarily the Baha'i view of the Biblical view of God, and the Aristotle view of the nature of our physical existence. I am presenting the Baha'i view of God and others cite the supporting scripture.

The view of the Church Fathers and the original context of the scripture is a matter of fact of their writings and the early history of Christianity and not opinion. Yes, throughout the history and scripture of the Bible it is acknowledged that there are "unknowable" apophatic attributes of God, but the doctrine and dogma of Christianity is grounded in the cataphatic nature of God, which defines the Christian God distinct from the other views of different religions. Judaism does believe in a more apophatic nature of God than Christianity. As with all ancient religions this is an ancient view of God and the Aristotle view of our physical existence was the human view at the time. and not the greater universal reality reflected in the diversity of the world religions which Christianity does not accept.

 

[blü 2]

1) The Universe must be a non-repeatable, non-random iteration out to infinity or else it would be wasted, illogical respectively.

Non-repeatable? Since, you say, it's already an iteration, what stops it having a further iteration?

The advance of entropy will, we think, ultimately mean the universe will have a uniform extremely low temperature. What use is infinity in a such a universe?

In what sense might the universe be 'wasted'? That sounds like a perfectly human judgment long long long after the time of the humans has gone.

 

[Kenny]

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

​

1) Yes
2) You have such small vision.

But you have every right to live small and think small.

Viewing the same information, I find that man is prominent and there must be a Creator.

 

[soulsurvivor]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

Actually, most of the planets in the universe are populated by some type of humans. They are just not in contact with us, because Earth is under a sort of cosmic quarantine. The evil on this planet needs to be eliminated (at least to a major extent) before any contact with Extra Terrestrials is openly possible. Very few planets in the universe have as much evil controlling the population as that of Earth. See ufocoverup.org .

 

[Epic Beard Man]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

But your needs don't matter considering you will be here on earth. Space as it was created, does not need your approval. You are remanents of star dust. Just a grain of sand and the earth shall be your tomb.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Non-repeatable? Since, you say, it's already an iteration, what stops it having a further iteration?

The advance of entropy will, we think, ultimately mean the universe will have a uniform extremely low temperature. What use is infinity in a such a universe?

In what sense might the universe be 'wasted'? That sounds like a perfectly human judgment long long long after the time of the humans has gone.

See my follow-up post, which I've copied here:

I am a nihilist. No there's not a purpose for the Universe, but it seems like scientifically speaking the universe wouldn't just be random or not vary. No two locations are alike. No space is wasted if it gets considered.

Added: The iteration must be infinite, and this is life/thought/consciousness.

 

[robocop (actually)]

A lot of you are saying, [The fact that the Universe is so big and has so much small is further evidence of how grand the designer is]. This does not make sense. You are pre-supposing that it was created, and then you marvel at how vast that is. Actually if you are looking for whether or not an almighty being created the Universe, the challenge decreases the likelihood because you don't already know that there is an almighty one.

 

[Skwim]

1) Yes
2) You have such small vision.

But you have every right to live small and think small.

Viewing the same information, I find that man is prominent and there must be a Creator.

And I understand the "must" that drives your belief.

.

 

[Skwim]

Actually, most of the planets in the universe are populated by some type of humans. They are just not in contact with us, because Earth is under a sort of cosmic quarantine. The evil on this planet needs to be eliminated (at least to a major extent) before any contact with Extra Terrestrials is openly possible. Very few planets in the universe have as much evil controlling the population as that of Earth. See ufocoverup.org .

Thank You!

.​

 

[Skwim]

But your needs don't matter considering you will be here on earth. Space as it was created, does not need your approval. You are remanents of star dust. Just a grain of sand and the earth shall be your tomb.

Err. . . .did I say it did?

.

 

[idav]

"Scientists now know that the universe contains at least two trillion galaxies. It’s a mind-scrunchingly big place, very different to the conception of the universe we had when the world’s major religions were founded. So do the astronomical discoveries of the last few centuries have implications for religion?

Over the last few decades, a new way of arguing for atheism has emerged. Philosophers of religion such as Michael Martin and Nicholas Everitt have asked us to consider the kind of universe we would expect the Christian God to have created, and compare it with the universe we actually live in. They argue there is a mismatch. Everitt focuses on how big the universe is, and argues this gives us reason to believe the God of classical Christianity doesn’t exist.

To explain why, we need a little theology. Traditionally, the Christian God is held to be deeply concerned with human beings. Genesis (1:27) states: “God created mankind in his own image.” Psalms (8:1-5) says: “O Lord … What is man that You take thought of him … Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!” And, of course, John (3:16) explains God gave humans his son out of love for us.

These texts show that God is human-oriented: human beings are like God, and he values us highly. Although we’re focusing on Christianity, these claims can be found in other monotheistic religions, too.

If God is human-oriented, wouldn’t you expect him to create a universe in which humans feature prominently? You’d expect humans to occupy most of the universe, existing across time. Yet that isn’t the kind of universe we live in. Humans are very small, and space, as Douglas Adams once put it, “is big, really really big”.

Scientists estimate that the observable universe, the part of it we can see, is around 93 billion light years across. The whole universe is at least 250 times as large as the observable universe.

To paraphrase Adams, the universe is also really, really old. Perhaps over 13 billion years old. Earth is around four billion years old, and humans evolved around 200,000 years ago. Temporally speaking, humans have been around for an eye-blink.

Clearly, there is a discrepancy between the kind of universe we would expect a human-oriented God to create, and the universe we live in. How can we explain it? Surely the simplest explanation is that God doesn’t exist. The spatial and temporal size of the universe gives us reason to be atheists.

As Everitt puts it:

The findings of modern science significantly reduce the probability that theism is true, because the universe is turning out to be very unlike the sort of universe which we would have expected, had theism been true.
source
​

So, if we humans are indeed god's masterpiece

Ephesians 2:10
“For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us
anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for
us long ago"
​

then the whole of the universe, all septimuchoquadrilion + cubic miles of it with its two trillion galaxies does appear to be considerable overkill. I certainly don't need a universe this large, and I doubt anybody else does either. Either its godly creator has no control over himself (OCD perhaps?) or he simply likes to have lots of stuff around himself (Hoarder Disorder?), OR, he doesn't exist at all.

.

​

The vastness of space would more suggest that god is bigger than the us. It isn't overkill if the objective was a universe with life in it, as opposed to humans being the objective.